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2019-20 Rebuild

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7 hours ago, weeyin said:

If that was the case, why would Hull bid £750k instead of enough to trigger the release clause?

Or is your assumption that the club had to say YES a load of shite?

Scott himself could have said no if he thought he was not up to the challenge of the Championship.  From his statements looks like he’s delighted with the move !!!!

All the power is now in the players hands, as I said previously any agent worth his salt will insist on a release clause in a contract 

You can bet your boots that Gallagher, Campbell and even MacIver will have them in their contracts 

As for Hull’s initial bid all clubs will test the water with low ball bids you never know depending on some clubs financial position  they might bit

Motherwell knocked it back immediately indicating to Hull that if they did not meet the release clause (what ever it was) don’t bother coming back with a bid

WELL DONE THE CLUB YOU PLAYED A BLINDER

 

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No matter what you say about selling of our young players (and I personally don't like it) , sitting  third in the league, no debt,in fact a bit of cash in the bank ,our business plan up till now is working

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12 minutes ago, postiejim said:

No matter what you say about selling of our young players (and I personally don't like it) , sitting  third in the league, no debt,in fact a bit of cash in the bank ,our business plan up till now is working

Think it’s the way we sell the club to youngsters and their parents

If your good enough and progress there is a pathway to the 1st team

We’ll develop your talent and if the right bid comes in we won’t stand in your way 

Think it is why our academy is the envy of so many others ……… if your good enough, show the right attitude there is a pathway to bigger and better things 

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The James Scott deal isn't ideal for us at this stage of the season, but that's football in this day and age. I'm hearing that he's set to "significantly increase" his weekly wages down there, as you can imagine, so it's a no-brainer for the lad. I've said it a number of times, it's easy for us fans to bleat on about development and giving it a few more years, but when you're the one who's handed a chance to make a ton of dough and to put yourself in the picture at a club down south it's not something you just pass up.

You strike while the iron is hot in such a short career. He doesn't know if such an opportunity comes along again, and although folk will say "well, if he's good enough it will," what if he's not? He's secured a three and a half year deal on very good money, and that's what really matters in all honesty. 

Long after the fans have stopped giving a fuck about him it's his family and his bank balance that'll matter. 

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It's a terrible fee to accept. In 2001 we got 900k from Wigan in League One for Lee McCulloch. Using the BoE inflation calculator that's £1.5m today. So basically we've sold Scott for 2/3rds of the McCulloch fee which is an utter joke. Burrows is lucky that most of our support won't realise this and think £1m in 2020 is the same as £1m in the 90s. He was banging on about phoning fans in the podcast so I'll await a call or text to explain this!

The only reason to sell now would be to strengthen the squad and instead we have signed another absolute no hoper. Robinson pushing Ndjoli as a striking option after starting MacIver in front of him is another slap in the face but to be fair he has other things on his mind.

The bottom line is we have weakened our squad this window when we are going for third, Europe and still in the cup. We have scored two goals from open play in the last 6 league games. We needed to strengthen if we have any ambition.

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9 hours ago, weeyin said:

Last moan on the subject - selling a developing youngster with two and a half years left on his contract and bringing in two short term loans to develop for other teams to sell on, is not the way to develop the team at the grass roots level.  If we just want to make money, we could scrap the academy and focus on recruitment of guys like Johnson, Moult, Hall and Kipre to flip for a quick profit.
 

It's perhaps not the way to develop the team at grass roots currently. It is fairly well documented that we are well off the pace compared to many of our peers in terms of the facilities available that play a part in actually recruiting and developing said Academy players, and indeed first team players for that matter. It has similarly also been well documented that it will be largely on the back off player trading that will enable such infrastructure to be built.

The  proceeds of Scott's sale I am certain aren't going to be sitting in an account to make the balance sheet look prettier.

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1 hour ago, steelboy said:

 Robinson pushing Ndjoli as a striking option after starting MacIver in front of him is another slap in the face but to be fair he has other things on his mind.

Your arse is making buttons to see how this trial goes isn't it?  I wonder if your new found interest in assault cases will last any longer than your previous interest in legal matters when you were so desperate to take up the cudgels on behalf of the the Oldham player who accused Robinson of bullying.

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2 hours ago, steelboy said:

It's a terrible fee to accept. In 2001 we got 900k from Wigan in League One for Lee McCulloch. Using the BoE inflation calculator that's £1.5m today. So basically we've sold Scott for 2/3rds of the McCulloch fee which is an utter joke. Burrows is lucky that most of our support won't realise this and think £1m in 2020 is the same as £1m in the 90s. He was banging on about phoning fans in the podcast so I'll await a call or text to explain this!

The only reason to sell now would be to strengthen the squad and instead we have signed another absolute no hoper. Robinson pushing Ndjoli as a striking option after starting MacIver in front of him is another slap in the face but to be fair he has other things on his mind.

The bottom line is we have weakened our squad this window when we are going for third, Europe and still in the cup. We have scored two goals from open play in the last 6 league games. We needed to strengthen if we have any ambition.

It all depends if Scott goes on to be a better player than Lee McCulloch. He’s scored four goals and while good on his day he’s still got a long way to go with no guarantees. However if he goes on to be as good as you obviously think he is we will also receive maybe another million due to the add ons. So if he does not develop a million and if he does maybe two million plus. Sometimes you need to have a little more faith in the club rather than always knocking it, I would say those running it have made a pretty good job of it as it stands. They have a business model that relies on selling players pretty much every season and keeping us in the black rather than going back to losing millions and putting the future of the club at risk. I also find it a shame you’ve yet again managed to have a pop at Robinson.

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3 minutes ago, Andy_P said:

Your arse is making buttons to see how this trial goes isn't it?  I wonder if your new found interest in assault cases will last any longer than your previous interest in legal matters when you were so desperate to take up the cadguls on behalf of the the Oldham player who accused Robinson of bullying.

I didn't think we should sack Robinson over the Oldham player but that we should ensure no one was behaving like that at Fir Park.

There is no point in being in denial that we are likely to be looking for a new manager before the end of the season.

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8 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

It all depends if Scott goes on to be a better player than Lee McCulloch. He’s scored four goals and while good on his day he’s still got a long way to go with no guarantees

When McCulloch was the same age he had scored two goals. He didn't actually kick on as a first team player until he was 21.

The fee is closer to what we paid for McSkimming than what we received for McCulloch. 

 

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On reflection I'm comfortable with Scott's transfer. Whilst he is an emerging talent I wouldn't say he's been a mainstay of the team. The upfront cash, which added to fees received for Stuart McKinstry, Jake Hastie, Reece MacAlear and Kyle Semple will amount to about  £2m this financial year. A nice sum and in line with our business model.  That will allow us to pay off the modest residual debt of £80K (meaning we are now 100% debt free), invest some more cash in the war chest, pay for other projects like the youth academy, and keep more for a rainy day. It might help to underwrite improved offers for the likes of Polworth, Campbell and Long.  Could we have received more? Probably yes. However we are not Dundee United and most Scots players from provincial clubs are undervalued by bigger English outfits.  I hope that our reputation grows to match that of United to the extent that a Motherwell "label" is automatically worth a few hundred grand extra, irrespective of the player's individual talent.

I hope it won't impact negatively  on the playing side. The Hibs game proved beyond all doubt that we are/were very lightweight up front.   Hopefully Ndjoli can fill that role along with Long. I suspect that Mazinga is a longer term project. Aarons will provide us with a threat on the right to counterbalance Hylton. Sloth's departure will free up a place in central midfield for a youngster like Jamie Semple or more likely Dean Cornelius to progress.

Its impossible to predict how the transfer window will impact on results as business done by other clubs will no doubt have an impact. Mid sized rivals have almost all been busy bringing in players as we knew they would. They may have picked up some gems but also some dross.  Quality V Quantity as the old saying goes.

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1 hour ago, steelboy said:

It's a terrible fee to accept. In 2001 we got 900k from Wigan in League One for Lee McCulloch. Using the BoE inflation calculator that's £1.5m today. So basically we've sold Scott for 2/3rds of the McCulloch fee which is an utter joke. Burrows is lucky that most of our support won't realise this and think £1m in 2020 is the same as £1m in the 90s. He was banging on about phoning fans in the podcast so I'll await a call or text to explain this!

The only reason to sell now would be to strengthen the squad and instead we have signed another absolute no hoper. Robinson pushing Ndjoli as a striking option after starting MacIver in front of him is another slap in the face but to be fair he has other things on his mind.

The bottom line is we have weakened our squad this window when we are going for third, Europe and still in the cup. We have scored two goals from open play in the last 6 league games. We needed to strengthen if we have any ambition.

If my memory serves me right the fee was for both McCulloch and Steve McMillan 

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Taken from Pie and Bovril.

Now the dust has settled on the (unexpected) Deadline Day big cash prize event, I had posted a variation of this around the time of The Magnificent David Turnbull Transfer Saga in the summer that's sort of worth updating.

Since Hutchison took over (30th Jan 2015) and in turn we became fan-owned we've seen these reported fees (a pinch of salt should obvs be taken):

19/20 - James Scott (Hull City) - £1.5m - Transfer
19/20 - Reece McAlear (Norwich City) - £250k - Transfer
19/20 - Jake Hastie (Rangers) £300k - Development Compensation
19/20 - Stuart McKinstry (Leeds United) - £400k* - Transfer
18/19 - Ryan Bowman (Exeter City) - £30k - Transfer
18/19 - Cedric Kipré (Wigan) - c.£1m - Transfer
17/18 - Louis Moult (Preston North End) - £500k - Transfer 
17/18 - Ben Heneghan (Sheffield United) - £350k-ish - Transfer
16/17 - Marvin Johnson (Oxford United) - £750k-ish - Transfer
16/17 - Stephen Pearson (Atletico Kolkata) - £100k - Transfer 
16/17 - Ben Hall (Brighton) - £210k - Development Compensation
14/15 - Lee Erwin (Leeds United) - £500k - Development Compensation

= £5.89m

That obviously omits anything that may be due from Chris Cadden shafting us and I've also seen mention of Kyle Semple to Rangers for about £50k but he was still listed as a Motherwell player in the last Scotland u16s squad so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

During McCall's entire tenure (30 December 2010 - 2nd November 2014) these players left:

10/11 - Mark Reynolds (Sheffield Wednesday) - £100k
11/12 - John Sutton (Hearts) - free 
12/13 - Steve Jennings (Coventry City) - free
12/13 - Jamie Murphy (Sheffield United) - £100k 
12/13 - Nicky Law (Rangers) - free 
13/14 - Darren Randolph (Birminham) - free 
13/14 - Chris Humphrey (Preston North End) - free 
13/14 - Henrik Ojamaa - (Legia Warsaw) - £300k
13/14 - Michael Higdon - (NEC Nijmegen) - free
13/14 - Tom Hateley - (Tranmere Rovers) - free
14/15 - Shaun Hutchinson (Fulham) - free
14/15 - Henri Anier (Erzgebirge Aue) - £300k

Total: £800k.

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1 hour ago, steelboy said:

It's a terrible fee to accept. In 2001 we got 900k from Wigan in League One for Lee McCulloch. Using the BoE inflation calculator that's £1.5m today. So basically we've sold Scott for 2/3rds of the McCulloch fee which is an utter joke. Burrows is lucky that most of our support won't realise this and think £1m in 2020 is the same as £1m in the 90s. He was banging on about phoning fans in the podcast so I'll await a call or text to explain this!

The only reason to sell now would be to strengthen the squad and instead we have signed another absolute no hoper. Robinson pushing Ndjoli as a striking option after starting MacIver in front of him is another slap in the face but to be fair he has other things on his mind.

The bottom line is we have weakened our squad this window when we are going for third, Europe and still in the cup. We have scored two goals from open play in the last 6 league games. We needed to strengthen if we have any ambition.

Oscar level fishing.

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11 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

Since Hutchison took over (30th Jan 2015) and in turn we became fan-owned we've seen these reported fees (a pinch of salt should obvs be taken):

= £5.89m

During McCall's entire tenure (30 December 2010 - 2nd November 2014) these players left:

Total: £800k.

Very interesting when you see the split from before/after. Clear change in strategy from the club, and it seems to be paying off!

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28 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

If my memory serves me right the fee was for both McCulloch and Steve McMillan 

It was 900k for McCulloch and 550k for McMillan.

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Really? My memory is the bulk of the fee was for McMillan as he was the more tried and tested and it came out that the fee for McCulloch in the papers was inaccurate and as usual, a bit sensationalist as they liked to label him as a £1m player.

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The fees there don't seem that accurate. We got less than a million for Kipre and there is no way we got 400k up front for McKinstry. And the fact that it is listing £1.5m for Scott when it's 1m is ridiculous. 

Most of the players in the second group contributed to 2nd place finishes and European qualification. The players in the first group achieved nothing or very little. Bringing in transfer fees is no doubt great if you are employed by the club and are looking for a wage rise. If you are paying to watch the team on the park we have definitely been weakened this month. 

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Disappointing to see James Scott go but since clubs generally buy potential from our level of football, rather than experience, I don't see any other way of conducting business. 

The days of holding on to players and building, as in the McLean era, is simply impossible now and while that might be hard and unpleasant to swallow its something we just have to come to terms with.

In the general scheme of things its important that we keep up the high levels of development that we saw under Craigan's tenure and that is a major focus for the club to continue to produce good quality players.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Disappointing to see James Scott go but since clubs generally buy potential from our level of football, rather than experience, I don't see any other way of conducting business. 

The days of holding on to players and building, as in the McLean era, is simply impossible now and while that might be hard and unpleasant to swallow its something we just have to come to terms with.

In the general scheme of things its important that we keep up the high levels of development that we saw under Craigan's tenure and that is a major focus for the club to continue to produce good quality players.

 

Too much sense getting spoken here

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2 hours ago, steelboy said:

It's a terrible fee to accept. In 2001 we got 900k from Wigan in League One for Lee McCulloch. Using the BoE inflation calculator that's £1.5m today. So basically we've sold Scott for 2/3rds of the McCulloch fee which is an utter joke. Burrows is lucky that most of our support won't realise this and think £1m in 2020 is the same as £1m in the 90s. He was banging on about phoning fans in the podcast so I'll await a call or text to explain this!

The only reason to sell now would be to strengthen the squad and instead we have signed another absolute no hoper. Robinson pushing Ndjoli as a striking option after starting MacIver in front of him is another slap in the face but to be fair he has other things on his mind.

The bottom line is we have weakened our squad this window when we are going for third, Europe and still in the cup. We have scored two goals from open play in the last 6 league games. We needed to strengthen if we have any ambition.

Do you think Scottish football is held in as high regard as it was at the time of Lee McCulloch? 

The facts are the reputation of the league and the quality gap between English and Scottish football has massively widened.  The quality of Scottish football has plummeted far further than any inflation calculation would take account of.  Performing well in our league is not even considered as any kind of reliable indicator of ability.  It's considered almost like a kind of youth or amateur football.  A player stands out a bit and clubs take a punt on them with no great expectation.  

To imagine the context of the James transfer is anything like that of the McCulloch transfer is to complete ignore what has happened to Scottish football over the last 20 years.  You aren't even factoring in that Lee McCulloch was an experienced players with close to 150 appearances when James Scott has less than a season of experience.

You also ignore the different financial model that the club operates under.  When McCulloch was sold we were operating a debt that we couldn't operate under now, in fact it nearly ended the club then.  Today the club has to live off it's own means and that equates to not having  the same ability to turn down offers of note.

A couple of months ago plenty people around here were of the opinion that James Scott should be farmed out on loan, or that he wasn't first team material.  Now we are receiving 1 million up front and potentially more.  I liked Scott, I pushed for his inclusion on these forums but in my mind this is a good deal for the club.  I think it stretches credibility to make out that anyone thought we'd be selling Scott for this fee now.  That tells its own story.

Does it impact the starting XI? Of course it does, if our new loan signing doesn't step up, I think we'll suffer more than a little on the playing side but in the position we are in as a club it is far more important that we can continue to fund a high level of youth development and that the club doesn't run up debts.  The thing we have to insure is that youth development is a major, in fact integral, focus, so that the next Campbell, Scott, Hastie, Turnbull isn't far away.

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32 minutes ago, steelboy said:

The players in the first group achieved nothing or very little. Bringing in transfer fees is no doubt great if you are employed by the club and are looking for a wage rise. 

Were you asked to the leave the under 12's for being too annoying or something? You seem so bitter towards the club. It's weird. 

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15 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Do you think Scottish football is held in as high regard as it was at the time of Lee McCulloch? 

The facts are the reputation of the league and the quality gap between English and Scottish football has massively widened.  The quality of Scottish football has plummeted far further than any inflation calculation would take account of.  Performing well in our league is not even considered as any kind of reliable indicator of ability.  It's considered almost like a kind of youth or amateur football.  A player stands out a bit and clubs take a punt on them with no great expectation.  

To imagine the context of the James transfer is anything like that of the McCulloch transfer is to complete ignore what has happened to Scottish football over the last 20 years.  You aren't even factoring in that Lee McCulloch was an experienced players with close to 150 appearances when James Scott has less than a season of experience.

You also ignore the different financial model that the club operates under.  When McCulloch was sold we were operating a debt that we couldn't operate under now, in fact it nearly ended the club then.  Today the club has to live off it's own means and that equates to not having  the same ability to turn down offers of note.

A couple of months ago plenty people around here were of the opinion that James Scott should be farmed out on loan, or that he wasn't first team material.  Now we are receiving 1 million up front and potentially more.  I liked Scott, I pushed for his inclusion on these forums but in my mind this is a good deal for the club.  I think it stretches credibility to make out that anyone thought we'd be selling Scott for this fee now.  That tells its own story.

Does it impact the starting XI? Of course it does, if our new loan signing doesn't step up, I think we'll suffer more than a little on the playing side but in the position we are in as a club it is far more important that we can continue to fund a high level of youth development and that the club doesn't run up debts.  The thing we have to insure is that youth development is a major, in fact integral focus, so that the next Campbell, Scott, Hastie, Turnbull isn't far away.

And to be fair I was one of those people. I still think he has a long way to go and he’s moving to a club that has just sold pretty much all their biggest assets and I would imagine will come under real pressure from their fanbase. I think it’s going to be really tough for him but having said that he does have all the attributes but will probably end up playing reserve team football. The premiership in Scotland  is regarded as no better than league one/two down south and clubs would much rather move for foreign players than Scottish ones if they are paying millions. It’s a pretty good deal in my view, if he’s a success we will end up with 2 million plus.

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1 hour ago, Yorkyred said:

Taken from Pie and Bovril.

Now the dust has settled on the (unexpected) Deadline Day big cash prize event, I had posted a variation of this around the time of The Magnificent David Turnbull Transfer Saga in the summer that's sort of worth updating.

Since Hutchison took over (30th Jan 2015) and in turn we became fan-owned we've seen these reported fees (a pinch of salt should obvs be taken):

19/20 - James Scott (Hull City) - £1.5m - Transfer
19/20 - Reece McAlear (Norwich City) - £250k - Transfer
19/20 - Jake Hastie (Rangers) £300k - Development Compensation
19/20 - Stuart McKinstry (Leeds United) - £400k* - Transfer
18/19 - Ryan Bowman (Exeter City) - £30k - Transfer
18/19 - Cedric Kipré (Wigan) - c.£1m - Transfer
17/18 - Louis Moult (Preston North End) - £500k - Transfer 
17/18 - Ben Heneghan (Sheffield United) - £350k-ish - Transfer
16/17 - Marvin Johnson (Oxford United) - £750k-ish - Transfer
16/17 - Stephen Pearson (Atletico Kolkata) - £100k - Transfer 
16/17 - Ben Hall (Brighton) - £210k - Development Compensation
14/15 - Lee Erwin (Leeds United) - £500k - Development Compensation

= £5.89m

That obviously omits anything that may be due from Chris Cadden shafting us and I've also seen mention of Kyle Semple to Rangers for about £50k but he was still listed as a Motherwell player in the last Scotland u16s squad so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

During McCall's entire tenure (30 December 2010 - 2nd November 2014) these players left:

10/11 - Mark Reynolds (Sheffield Wednesday) - £100k
11/12 - John Sutton (Hearts) - free 
12/13 - Steve Jennings (Coventry City) - free
12/13 - Jamie Murphy (Sheffield United) - £100k 
12/13 - Nicky Law (Rangers) - free 
13/14 - Darren Randolph (Birminham) - free 
13/14 - Chris Humphrey (Preston North End) - free 
13/14 - Henrik Ojamaa - (Legia Warsaw) - £300k
13/14 - Michael Higdon - (NEC Nijmegen) - free
13/14 - Tom Hateley - (Tranmere Rovers) - free
14/15 - Shaun Hutchinson (Fulham) - free
14/15 - Henri Anier (Erzgebirge Aue) - £300k

Total: £800k.

Did we not get a further sell on fee with Marvin Johnson ?

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Great move for James and hopefully he will kick on down there.He has everything  to succeed imo but he lacks at this stage only aggression which will hopefully come. I personally would not have thought at this stage of his career and his performances for us we would have got such a fee. Gd business for us I feel and if the prediction that turnbull is back in 3 weeks is true and he hits the ground running then everything will be rosy. I also feel aarons helps us as a pacy left footed winger as we do not have anyone like that who can beat a rb on the outside. Similar to marvin johnson in style.

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