dennyc

You've got me worried now. Please tell me you are having a laugh. In a matter of months Ross managed to dismantle all the good work Craigen did with our youth/reserve/B team. Tactically clueless as shown against Hearts in the Reserve Cup Final which I had the misfortune to attend. Several of our promising youngsters seemed to disappear under his reign. Liam Brown for one was outstanding under Craigen but deemed not required under Ross. What was once a source of great talent and income for Motherwell produced next to nothing in Ross's time. He does appear to have contacts at Motherwell so I am not surprised his name has been mentioned. He is always held up by the usual BBC pundits as a star in the making and came to Motherwell highly touted. But for me he achieved little other than helping to warm up the first team pre game. If he gets the job, I hope my fears are misplaced. But not for me. There is a reason he has not been trusted with a job beyond Scandinavian and Scottish lower tier clubs. As evidenced by his record at Cowdenbeath. His spell as assistant at Notts County did not end well either. His CV does not stack up to the likes of Valakari and Lennon.

You might be on to something there. Maybe delete Spittal. Insert Kirk. He likes a goal up there.

Fair point. 3 years maybe? I was just surprised that Liverpool's nine CL/Uefa wins plus three Super Cup wins were not enough to take them above the clubs I mentioned. As Liverpool did spend time outside the the top division and were banned as you say, it suggests to me that the co-efficient to a degree reflects number of appearances whereas I thought achievement when actually participating would have a greater reward. Real Madrid of course have mastered both. So playing in a League like ours gives Rangers and Celtic a head start in collecting points over those who have to fight to get a European place. Ever presents since the early sixties sitting above the likes of Liverpool despite achieving little. Kiev as an example. I appreciate that the OF have appeared in a number of finals but others have not. Just an observation. That's all.

Again, it is not the fact Alexander dropped O'Donnell to the bench. That was justified in most folks eyes but perplexing when others were just as poor but retained their place regardless. So let's get that straight. What is being highlighted is that in our time of dire need, when his chosen replacement at right back was becoming a liability and rapidly losing confidence, Alexander refused to use O'Donnell off the bench...... or to even start a game. And that continued into this season even after our home performance against Sligo. Being on the bench, we have to assume that O'Donnell was fit enough and performed well enough in training to merit that place. O'Donnell's recent comments suggest he did just knuckle down and get on with it. So why not try him as the situation on the field became more and more depressing? No wonder most people believe it was personal and that O'Donnell was being made to suffer. Refuse the Bench position and he could have been suspended by the Club. Credit to O'Donnell for not going down the Declan route.

It is not really about O'Donnell though. It is about Alexander and his style of management. O'Donnell is just an example of that style and also Alexander's stubbornness and refusal to do what might have been good for the Club during a spell which at best can be described as poor. Slattery, Woolery. Lamie and to a lesser degree Tierney could all be substituted for SOD as players who were sidelined at a time when others were performing poorly but retained.......Goss, McGinley, Carroll, Shields, Efford, Ojala as examples. And you keep saying that folk are insisting O'Donnell should not have been dropped. That is just not true, no matter how often you repeat it. What people are saying is that when we were in freefall, Alexander for some reason totally ignored a player who he deemed good enough to sit on the bench and who represented his country. Not even worthy of a try at a time when his preferred selection was becoming a liability with confidence shot to pieces. And is still suffering. So instead of deflecting to the rights and wrongs of O'Donnell can you please comment on Alexander's performance from January to season end, including his team selections and formation? I say end season, but you can include this season's brief venture into Europe if you like. Clearly those factors were enough for the Club to get rid of him. No matter that " he avoided relegation and got us into Europe".

A really interesting read. What surprised me is how Liverpool as multiple winners across the tournaments sit below the OF and Kiev. I guess it just bears witness to how some clubs being guaranteed European football each season skews the figures. And highlights how long it takes for others to overtake them if those lower quality teams get through a few early rounds. Dukla Prague are even in there despite being disbanded and disappearing for a number of years before a local Prague club resurrected the name and progressed up the Divisions.

Great point. Seems to work perfectly well for Scandinavian clubs as several results in Europe this season confirm. Not too bad an effect on Irish Clubs either in the earlier rounds! Would be great if our lords and masters in Scotland actually looked and acted upon what would be good for Scottish football rather than blindly following others. And heaven forbid us fans get a say.

Is that when he was still Captain. I'm sure that happens at many clubs going through a bad spell. The captain calling a meeting that is.

I think it is pretty unprofessional to completely ignore a player who you deem is good enough for the bench (if not the first team) when the first team is in freefall. I also think it is unprofessional to ignore a player who is good enough for the International team when the player you have selected out of position to take his place is a liability and whose confidence is being destroyed. Alexander was entitled to make his point to SOD, but he carried it on too long and to the detriment of the Club. Sitting on the Bench, watching poor performance after performance, but not being allowed to contribute could be considered more of a punishment to a top player than being dropped altogether. That was not professional from Alexander although it looks to be his style. And it carried on into the new season in an attempt to force O'Donnell out of Motherwell altogether. More bench sitting and a replacement signed. No doubt some fans would be happy with that and they are entitled to that view. If you read O'Donnell's comments he got his head down and worked hard which suggests to me he accepted he had areas to improve. He had certainly made errors in a run of games, like many others. He also made no comment at the time regarding the fall out. That is professional. And I'm not saying Manager's should be influenced unduly by fans' reaction to players. What is wrong is to use that as a justification for defending Alexander's victimisation of a specific player.

I agree 100% re the level of our wages. We are never going to be able to compete with a good number of the teams in our league. And many lower/non league English clubs are financially ahead of us also. We are limited in the quality of player we can recruit from "the usual sources" so that heightens the need for a fresh approach and a strong youth development programme...notwithstanding that some will follow the route of Bailey Rice and a good few others. In hindsight I wonder if our strategy of working with an expanded squad for CoVid reasons hamstrung us to a degree, especially as various contracts were then extended....using up much needed resources over the following one or two seasons. How does the actual size of our squad compare to the likes of Livi, County, St Johnstone etc? I wonder if they are working with smaller squads enabling them to offer higher wages, within the same overall budget that we work to. If that is the case it will likely take time for us to reach an effective balance. I really do believe we have arrived at a time where the Club will need to look at their entire strategy moving forward. A new Manager is only part of that. I sense the Board have much thinking to do.

It does not matter what the disagreement was about, but if it was about SOD not being good enough then why was he even on the Bench? Drop him altogether if that is the Manager's considered assessment. The fact is we had a Manager who punished a player by dumping him on the bench and (even worse) then ignoring him when the team he was managing was in freefall. That is not what I consider a professional approach. Harmed the team as a whole, the individual player and also the players exposed by being forced to play out of position. Only one person appears to have acted professionally, and it was not Alexander. And if you read O'Donnell's comments he is still conducting himself as he should. The fans call out various players every game but I did not see Alexander treating those players as he did O'Donnell. Well, not for the same length of time anyway. It seems Slattery and Carroll to name just two were paroled. His treatment of O'Donnell was vindictive, whether or not benching him originally was justified. And it continued into the new season. Yorkyred is correct in that fallouts happen at all clubs from time to time. But at most Clubs BOTH parties work to patch things up for the benefit of all. Does not read like that was the case here. As for continuing to bash a guy who has thankfully gone, were you there on Saturday to see the shambles he left behind? Despite Alexander stating what a great job he had done. Did you read Hammell's comments about the state of the squad he inherited? ...Unfit, confidence shot, players with little game time pre season....and as a result little scope for trying different set ups. On Saturday, not one fan sitting around me was happy with what they were watching but all were unanimous that Hammell had been left to tidy up a shambles of Alexander's making. And they were not just referring to the O'Donnell situation. And let's not mention his summer recruitment...or lack of. You and a few others can defend Alexander as is your right. But the evidence against him explains why you appear to be in the vast minority.

Not at all. I think in those days fans were a bit more rational when it came to certain other teams. Since then sporting dislike has turned to obsessive hatred for some. A blight that sadly affects more than Motherwell. "Tribal" is the word often used.

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well. Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is, benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out. As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final. And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll. I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

I suppose it's really how you view it. For me most of the fans that wanted SOD dropped never wanted him at the Club in the first place. I'm not going to trawl back but the comments when he signed were out of order. Some even held his supposed liking of Celtic against him. So when he had a dip in form it just played into their narrative. When he had a decent game those fans were noticeably quiet. His winner in Europe some time back as a classic example. So his form was not their main motivation, even when it was poor. When he had a decent game for Scotland those same fans also used that against him. I think we agree he was probably our best right back whether he was playing or not. We were certainly both supportive of him and thought some of the comments against him were OTT. Where we differ seems to be when it comes to Alexander's part in things. Even when Mugabi was really struggling and becoming a liability out wide, Alexander insisted on sticking with him in that position. Not only on a game by game basis, but also during games when Mugabi was almost pleading to be replaced. And O'Donnell was on the Bench, fit and unused. When Alexander eventually decided to change things, he ignored SOD and even turned to O'Hara in one game. So, if O'Donnell was injured why was he on the Bench? If he was not injured why was he ignored when everybody could see Mugabi was struggling. If Alexander did not rate O'Donnell why pick him in the first place, even on the Bench. The logical answer I can come up with was that it was personal between the two. Otherwise, when the team you are responsible for is struggling badly and ultimately your job will be on the line, why not turn to the best, fit right back you have at your disposal. Nobody is saying O'Donnell is a world beater. But Alexander's treatment of him was mystifying and in my opinion hurt the team (and Mugabi as an individual) . And to finish it off I believe the signing of McGinn was another attempt at forcing O'Donnell to leave. It clearly was not with the intention of playing both on the right in a formation that just might have gotten the best out of both players.

David and Yorkyred I admire you for your ongoing robust defence of our former Manager. If you believe there was no animosity between Alexander and former/current players which affected moral within the squad then I think you are in the minority. Like everyone else you are entitled to your opinion and you fight your corner well. Whether any such animosity was justified or otherwise at times is another discussion. As for O'Donnell being "shit", even an out of form O'Donnell was miles better than Mugabi at right back. And I'm not having a dig at Mugabi as he was clearly trying his best and doing as he was instructed. SOD is one who certainly has his detractors (as you highlighted) but how many of them were on his back before he even kicked a ball for us? Whatever, he certainly brought a better balance to the team when he featured. That's the same Mugabi who was repeatedly exposed at right back by Alexander ( and we are seeing the effect on Mugabi to this day) whilst a reportedly fully fit SOD was left to rot on the bench. Why, if not for spite? Drop him altogether if he has no chance of featuring. Like he did with Liam Grimshaw. Alexander even resorted to O'Hara rather than O'Donnell on occasion. Seems quite clear to me, as it did with Slattery, Woolery and others who seemed to be ignored no matter what. One thing you cannot deny or deflect from is that the performances on the pitch were really what was "shit" for 6 months, and arguably longer. Both in a tactical sense and a results sense. And that in most people's view was down to Alexander's refusal to adapt or try a fresh approach when his approach was failing. Sure, the players were not blameless, but it was the depressing and seemingly clueless match day performances that brought his time as Manager to an end. In fact but for a loyalty shown by our Board Alexander might not have lasted to season end. He was given credit for earlier achievements and allowed to take us into a new season in the hope that he could improve the situation. Had he shown any inclination to adapt he may well have survived a bit longer. Alexander does have his supporters amongst the players he left behind, but I honestly think the number thankful to see the back of him will be in the majority. Whatever, as professionals they all need to pull together to take the Club forward. No matter who the new Manager is.

Whoever gets appointed is a risk so why not Valakari rather than one of any of the other risks? I wonder though if the BBC just picked up on an old Daily Record story and linked it to previous interest. Lazy journalism as we are used to. His track record is as good of as any of the other names mentioned. The serious ones anyway. If he really wants the job despite currently doing well in a secure post in Finland, then that puts him ahead of many of the names mentioned who have been out of work for a while and will be desperate to get a job, any job. In my eyes anyway. And we need a fresh start not more of the same old same old. For me Valakari would be an exciting appointment, as would Craigan. But Valakari has way more experience of managing senior players. We could do a lot worse I think.

Fans all over the world are the same. Team on a bad run, players not performing, Manager looking bereft of ideas as how to turn things round, culminating in an embarrassing defeat..home and away…in a match the fans had looked forward to for months. No matter the team, no matter the country, the reaction would have been the same. Patience only goes so far. In the same way that if a team is on a good run, players and Manager performing, fans will react positively and all will be well in the world. And players and fans will be big mates. Rightly or wrongly that’s the way it is with football in particular. Passion is a powerful thing. Rather that than fans and players don’t care. Time to move on once more.

If we had scored that goal we would be going nuts at how good it was. And nobody would be having a go at the goalkeeper. The error was giving the foul away in the first place.

Kelly starting his leaving campaign methinks. He might have had a point regarding the fans reaction if Thursday had been a one off. But it was the culmination of months of frustration. And he knows that. As for him being exempt from criticism, they win as a group and they fail as a group. No-one is exempt from criticism, from Board, to coaching staff, to players. Personally he has been at fault for goals as well, although I do not really buy into Thursday being one of those occasions.

I agree with a lot of what you say in the above and with the comparisons you make. However the Board also have a responsibility to intervene for the sake of the Club if they see a downturn which indicates to them that we are in freefall. Respectfully, I suggest that describes our performance throughout 2022. A 2022 which has seen no indication of improvement. I guess it is a case of should they act before we are in the mire, or wait until we are up to our armpits with little hope of escaping. Finances may well be a short term factor but I believe they must act now. For the long term sake of our Club.

From the outside it seems like Alexander is punishing SOD and trying to embarrass him into asking away. Making him sit on the bench, watching poor performance after poor performance. There is no rational reason why SOD did not make an appearance in either Conference game. God knows, it's not as if we were coasting along to an easy victory. I cannot believe it is down to injury. If so why was he retained in the Scotland squad and not returned to Club as happened with a good few others? And if Alexander is convinced SOD is not good enough why does he sit him on the bench in the first place? You get shot down on here for expressing such views but Craigen's comments last night certainly pointed fans in that direction as well. It can be an asset having a strong Manager and we all know some players need that. But this has gone on too long and appears to have become personal. Others have suffered similar, but not to this extent. If, as was rumoured, O'Donnell told Alexander his tactics were shite, then I think we can all see now he was correct.

I get your point as well. I think if that happens we will see Clubs limiting liability by just awarding 12 month contracts…perhaps rolling based on targets… which may actually hurt both parties in the long run.I wish we had done that or maybe we did. Bosman was needed to protect players but it also created other unfair situations….hence Training and Development Compensation etc. Now Clubs are finding a way round that , or at least ways to minimise payments. Agents are another story. All because sport is unique. Re your last comment. I’ve been screaming that for a while.

I'm saying Clubs sack Managers all the time and more often than not the two sides come to some sort of mutually acceptable arrangement, avoiding Court action. Football is a fairly unique business and what is the norm elsewhere is not always the norm in football. As examples....... we have seen instances of large one off payments in full settlement, with a claw back effective if the payee secures another job within, for example, 12 months. Or a relatively small up front settlement with ongoing monthly payments for an agreed length of time. There are all sorts of agreements that can be entered into if there is willing. And we will just have to also disagree on that reputational damage. There are plenty of up and coming Managers, ex players with Motherwell at heart, and out of work Managers that will not concern themselves one iota whether their potential employer sacked the previous job holder. To the contrary, that is what is opening the door. Agreed not all will be of the required standard, but enough will be. Bottom line...in my opinion it will do much more damage financially and reputationally to stick with Alexander.

But they tried. No-one will ever know if Ross would have turned things round either. Would they be in any better position now if Ross had stayed.? But the Club and the fans decided enough was enough. It's that old question..."How long do you wait?" Will we be in a better position if Alexander stays for six months/a year? I don't believe we will. He has shown nothing in the past six months to convince me he can change for the better.

1. There are dozens of Managers....unemployed and otherwise....who would jump at the chance of working at Fir Park. Every vacancy at every Club draws lots of applications. Everybody believes it will never happen to them. 2. Managers are sacked all the time. Most result in buy out terms being agreed. Perhaps even by continuing a monthly salary to (mitigate one off costs) unless the displaced Manager secures another job. No reason Motherwell could not do similar. 3. Our reputation is already being damaged every day that Alexander continues. Motherwell are well respected off the pitch and I think it does more damage to that reputation if we do not act, and certainly if we end up adrift at the wrong end of the League. There are times when loyalty is actually seen as a weakness. I think this is one of them.