dennyc

Atlanta. Free to say now as revealed elsewhere. Seems a huge step to me, but that is what I was told

I was told last night that an MLS Club had outbid Rangers and that Rangers were not prepared to match the offer. In fact they were pissed off as they thought a deal had been agreed for Hastie to go to Ibrox. So they stepped away. Good for us if true. They guy has usually been spot on with his Scottish info so I tend to believe him....and it ties in with the comments now out in the press. He did mention a Club but I was a bit dubious at first given who it was. And then I saw Steelboy's update. But its definitely not to team up with Rose. A much more established team than that.

Hearing from a Rangers contact that Hastie is off to join Weeyin, for more money than on offer from Ibrox.

Think that was in summer 2017 per newspaper interview with Craigen in Feb 2019. "But former Well Under-20s coach Stephen Craigan reckons seeing just how BAD his fitness was gave the Fir Park winger with the wake-up call he needed. Craigan said: “When the young Motherwell players came back in the summer of 2017 we did weight and fitness tests on them all. “Jake was bottom of the pile. I think he’d been on holiday with one of his mates during the summer and it showed. “Compare that with last summer. He started the season flying in training and I asked him what he’d done different. “He said he hadn’t gone away on holiday, he’d just trained. “That was nothing to do with me or any of the coaches at Motherwell. I think the penny had dropped with him that he had responsibility for his own life. That he could be a football player or a beach boy. “We sent him on loan to Alloa. Jim Goodwin probably didn’t know it, but we knew he’d done all right in League One on loan at Airdrie and now we wanted to see how he got on in the Championship. “But while he was there he was able to play for our Under-20s and a couple of the games were at Fir Park, so the coaching staff got to watch him. “It was quite funny. The staff had a chat around October and we were discussing what we wanted in a wide player. "The identikit was someone fast, physically strong, who would get you a goal or two. “I said, ‘We’ve got one like that, but he’s out on loan at Alloa!’. “But although he was on a season-long loan with Alloa, there was a clause allowing Motherwell to bring him back in January and we knew pretty early on we’d be doing that." “But the way Jake has developed is down to the coaches he’s had and the way he’s applied himself.” So in the summer of 2018 he was earmarked for return in January 2019, having got his fitness and attitude sorted out as the penny had dropped. Also regular updates from Craigen confirmed Hastie was making progress at Alloa and Jim Goodwin was delighted with him. He was also doing all that was being asked of him when he played for our youth team. We knew last year he was close to breaking into the first team, in fact that was the plan. Hastie's attitude and fitness was a huge part of that intention.

Yet again you completely ignore what people are saying about the timing of making a contract extension offer. You conveniently turn the discussion to January when releasing players freed up some cash . How about about last summer when money was available but wasted on the likes of Sammon and Taylor-Sinclair.... and others. That is BEFORE he came to the attention of Clubs such as Rangers, and the cash they can offer. We had clearly marked him as one for the future at that time, as stated by Craigen and Robinson way back then. So I'll repeat the direct question I asked you over a week ago. Third time of asking. Do you think Hastie might just have signed a new contract last Summer had he been offered one? Even a one year extension would have protected us at relatively minor cost. Last summer, when he had already been earmarked as a player with a better chance than most of making it. And at a time when their was a buzz about the place having reached two Cup Finals. That is the point some people are making and which you seem to ignore. Of course we can't make players sign. We all know that. Even if we had made an offer, he might have stalled. But the timing of any offer can make a huge difference and the Club may well have got it wrong with Hastie. I wonder what you would be saying if Turnbull had opted to leave as well..........and McGuire, and Scott,....... also belatedly offered extended contracts. Talent like Turnbull and Hastie possess is a rarity, particularly at a relatively small Club like Motherwell. For what it's worth I hear the offer is nowhere near the £15k PW quoted but it is way above what we can offer. Like others, I heard the figure was £4k PW on a 4 Year deal . By comparison (from a family member) David Bates left Rangers for Hamburg because Rangers were not prepared to go anywhere near the £7K on offer in Germany, even though Bates was in their first team and wanted to stay at Ibrox. Why on earth would they gamble £15k per week on a youngster with very limited first team experience. But if he goes, good luck to the boy. And if he is getting £15k PW even better. i wish him well. He might have a familiar face joining him very soon.

I'm just glad that there are options and we can actually choose someone. Several months ago the thought of picking Players of the year would have been laughable. Unless it was based on the least disappointing. I agree Turnbull had an amazing impact by way of goals, chances created,composure..... but I think his biggest impact was that he brought hope and belief and lifted a group of fans and players who had all but given up on avoiding a relegation battle. So I can see the argument for him winning both awards. But for his heart, desire and will to win no matter what, my player of the season is Aldred, with Turnbull as young player. Special mention to Gillespie also.

I agree to a great extent. It is a balancing act. I just wonder if we are being as smart as we could be. Perhaps we have also been victims of our own success, or more accurately the success of our recruitment and youth development strategy. To produce such a group of outstanding youngsters at the same time is fantastic, but it is exceptional and does have financial implications. My argument is that I think a further investment in Turnbull, McGuire, Scott and Hastie......all players who had passed every test with flying colours, had featured in first team squads and and were clearly thought by our coaches to have a better chance than most.....would have given us a better return and been less of a risk than some of the decisions that were made last summer. Even if only two of the four actually went on to higher and greater things, the income from that would more than offset the cost of the two that did not move on ( £20/25k as a guesstimate). And how often are we likely to be lucky enough to have four exceptional youth players emerge at the same time? Two would be great but in reality zero is also a possibility. If Hastie does move on, how much more would we have received if he were on a higher wage with a year to run on his contract? We would be in a much stronger position. Even if he sat out that contract and then moved on, we would be entitled to a greater Development Fee. I think it was a risk worth taking last summer with him (and the others). Yes Weeyin, that is subject to us persuading him to sign . But I honestly believe we had a greater chance then than we have now. On that note, can anyone who watches the current Reserve Team on a regular basis honestly say they witness players of the quality of Turnbull etc etc? From what I've seen, only Semple might be approaching that level with Livingstone another possibility. Beyond that I am struggling but it is a time of transition, player and coach wise. Semple was approached by several other Clubs when he joined us at age 14 and I know of one at least who are keeping an eye on his situation. As you say he is out of Contract in May and he will have a decision to make. Despite what some folk are suggesting on here, I'm not talking about huge wage increases or four year deals with the potential of bankrupting the Club. A 12 month (18 months max) contract, to be reviewed if the player graduated to the first team seems reasonable . A mini Hibs deal if you like. Also not every player will tick all the boxes like the four I mentioned . So , again contrary to what some folk are suggesting, I am not proposing that every youngster who has a couple of good games should be regarded as the next Lionel Messi and offered mega bucks. I am talking about players who have arrived at Reserve level having passed all the quality lines and who are....just about...first team ready. I can understand us losing younger players , McKinstrey to Leeds and Miller to Rangers as examples. Tom Leighton, who opted for Watford and went on to Captain Northern Ireland U19s is another, He is currently doing well in Watfford's U20s. There can be many reasons why players such as those move elsewhere at a young age, and not all under the control of the parent club. And different Contract Laws apply. It's the outstanding kids that are almost there that I think we need to be more clever with. They are our future both on the pitch and financially. Particularly if Project Brave is still a factor (seems to have gone all quiet on that front) and we get highly rated youngsters placed with us for development.

Until Easter Road I would have agreed with you, particularly with Grimshaw doing well on the right. But I thought Tait had his poorest game for a while on Saturday and Grimshaw was also a bit below par. Hopefully a "one off" as that formation has worked extremely well of late. But it did get me thinking again about players being set up in their best positions. Hibs certainly seemed to get in behind both on a regular basis, perhaps because both of them naturally were drawn inside? But as I say, that set up has worked well of late.

Good questions. Only thing I would add is that the Club may intentionally run down contracts for those players they wish to manage out. You would need to filter those out to achieve a true measure but how you do it I don't know. And maybe the rules are different the younger the player? I do recall that Robinson (and Burrows I think) indicated that they had opened discussions with Hastie and Turnbull when they broke into the first team, following the media highlighting that both were at Pre Contract Agreement stage. After that we also signed up McGuire and Scott. Maybe they had all been in discussion previously but it casts doubt in my mind. It probably did not help our case to be saying things like"We've made our best offer and now it is up to XXX". Even if that was the case.

Apologies if I misunderstood. No offence intended. I'm enjoying the Debate though.

Oh, I don't blame the youngsters at all for making the decisions they see as best for their career and/or finances. But there does appear to have been a fair number of highly regarded prospects recently whose contracts have run down. Did all of them turn down offers before they reached that stage? I honestly don't know but I doubt it given the numbers concerned. An earlier poster quoted similar examples from a couple of seasons ago. Your comment re Newell and Gordon is fair though. It does appear more difficult to hang on to players the younger they are (Miller, McKinstray) , But as they reach Reserve Team level they are more established with a proven track record (Turnbull, Hastie) and I just worry that the Club could be more proactive in attempting to secure their long term commitment to Motherwell. Not all will be Superstars but a few stand out above the rest. Wee bit more about the Alkass Cup for anybody interested. If you're not., please ignore. It's easy to dismiss Rangers achievement because we detest them. However they were the 6th British team invited to take part, following Liverpool, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal and Celtic. It's an elite Tournament. They were the first British team to win it, beating top teams from all over the World. And they won it with a kid from OUR Academy to the forefront. One of the best players taking part. We do produce top quality players through our Academy and I want us to do all in our power to retain such players, particularly if the survive to Reserve Team level.

Fair points and spot on. I tried to cover the financial implications for the likes of Motherwell by saying that 3 years was maybe a step too far. And that it applied to only a select few players, perhaps less at our Club compared to Hibs. I do appreciate that money is an issue, but last year I believe we did not use our resources as prudently as we should have. And yes we don't really know Motherwell's process. But Hastie, Turnbull, Scott, McGuire and McKinstrey all appear to have been highly regarded but allowed to run their contracts down, possibly to the detriment of the Club in the long term. If someone can confirm that all five were offered extended contracts last summer please do so. At least that would confirm the Club did their very best. So I believe it is acceptable to ask questions. Others appear less relaxed about asking those questions. Scoojy, re Thomas. He was at the Club for a relatively short spell (5 years and Celtic Youth before that) and ,yes, there was a clamour to play him in the first team. I think based on his impact from the Bench against Hearts where he laid on a goal? Fair play to him for that. From memory he failed to grab his chance after that and, in my opinion, flattered to deceive and had limitations....like his final ball. Perhaps that's why he is now at Dumbarton, admittedly doing very well. Turnbull, Hastie and others have been with us since age six ,have been carefully managed through various age groups. and have always shown the application and determination to succeed. They performed well over a number of years and passed every test placed before them with flying colours. Fortunately those two grabbed their first team chance and did exceptionally well almost immediately. To my mind they were always a safer bet than Thomas. So a comparison with Thomas is not comparing like with like. Some will cope with the move up, some will not. But I believe the Club has a duty to protect our investment when exceptional talent with a proven track record comes along. But it's all about opinion. Each to their own

Ok. I'll play the game although it is probably pointless. After all, some on here appear to think you cannot voice an opinion unless you are a qualified football coach. I thought Football Forums were all about fan opinion and healthy debate where opinions differed. Or maybe it's just that on this Forum it's frowned upon to dare to have an opinion which questions our Club? Anyway, here goes. From the current reserve team, and setting aside Scott and Maguire who hopefully we can agree to consider as members of the first team squad, from what I have seen I don't think anyone has yet displayed the talent/potential of Turnbull or Hastie. Adam Livingstone and Liam Brown of the more senior players and the slightly younger Jamie Semple are the players who stand out for me. But all three have have a little way to go if they are to have the impact of the youngsters who broke through this season. Following Craigen's departure and substantial changes to the squad, it's very much a rebuilding process at that level and only time will tell if we have a few more gems in our ranks. Reece McAlear was recently promoted and is highly regarded. But it's very early days in his case. Only my humble opinion of course. I have not seen much of the players below Reserve Team level but I understand there are a few that are on the radar of other Clubs. Rangers and Celtic for example. McKinstrey has already agreed to join Leeds. Fairly common for players of that age to switch Clubs and clearly senior success is even less guaranteed. Liam Brown, for instance, joined us from Queens Park, although he was a bit further advanced and had first team experience. Motherwell's success at youth level has been noted by many and our coaching and scouting staff are much respected. Talking of Rangers, does the name Murray Miller ring a bell with anyone? He left us a couple of seasons ago and is currently starring in midfield for Rangers U17 and is a Scottish Internationalist. They recently became the first British team to win The Alkass International Cup, a tournament featuring teams such as Real Madrid, Bayern, Roma , PSV and Spartak Moscow. Miller was a standout and has been earmarked as one most likely to make it all the way. We received a Development Fee of around £30k for him, which I suppose is a fair amount for someone so young. So I accept that youngsters do switch clubs, sometimes for family reasons which I understand was a factor in Miller's case. Turning to safeguarding investment in younger players, a friend who has a link to Hibs, told me that towards the end of each season they strictly assess the entire Reserve Team squad in an effort to identify players who have the ability and application to make it all the way. A select few are then offered three year contracts. Not at first team rates but at a higher rate than the basic Reserve Team wage. The agreement is that when they make their expected breakthrough to the first team, the Contract will be revisited and a wage increase negotiated. Seems a good strategy to me but perhaps a three year deal might be a step to far for some Clubs. I think Mackie who came on for Gray on Saturday and did well was one of the youngsters who came through that process. Porteous was another.

Do you think it would have been wise to offer Hastie increased terms last summer, when he was going on loan to Alloa? Say, from £250 PW to £500 PW . A question you did not answer. The overall cost increase would not have beeen massive. The reference to more senior player contracts ( Sammon and Taylor-Sinclair as examples) is a pointer to where I believe money should have been better invested. And would have resulted in a better return. Less of a risk if you like. I don't regard Newell as one of those senior players, but rather a youth player, inferior to Hastie, whose contract was extended ahead of a sensible offer being made to Hastie. So funds were available. I hope I am wrong , but I believe Hastie will sign a Pre Contract Agreement with Rangers this week for a wage that blows us out the water. We will end up with decent compensation, but a great deal lower than it would have been 9 months down the line. Rangers continue to rebuild ,are aggressively recruiting, and we will not be the only Club to see a player head in that direction. Kilmarnock already with Jones and soon Aberdeen when Shinnie signs. Best move for Jake? Possibly not, Best move for Motherwell? Definately not. But sadly money talks. It could have been worse though. The Club's decisions could have robbed us of Turnbull as well.

Players are loaned out at various stages of their development, with Hastie's spell at Alloa being a move up to Championship level and a far greater test than his spell at Airdrie, and with the definate intention of getting him first team ready. To compare it to placing numerous players on loan with lower league clubs is misleading. Do you think it would have been wise to extend Hastie's contract by twelve months at reasonable cost when he was loaned out to Alloa? Given that he had progressed well through all stages of development and was close to breaking into the first team, as stated by Craigen and Robinson when he joined Alloa. Clubs like Rangers, Celtic ....and several English Clubs it now appears....closely monitor youth development throughout Scotland so it is no surprise that a highly rated talent such as Hastie attracts immediate attention when he makes an impact like he has. Rangers previously attempted to sign him up at age 16. I think given those circumstances it would have been sensible to protect our investment in Hastie rather than sign up bench players, one of which did not even last beyond January. And let's not forget signing up Newell for another year. Sensible use of limited resources? I hardly think so.

Who mentioned a long term contract at that stage? Hastie has come through numerous age groups at Motherwell, surviving as dozens of others fell by the wayside. He was surely worthy of a year's extension to ensure we were protected if he made that final step up. I accept that step up was achieved 6 months earlier than anticipated but we exposed ourselves by letting his contract run down to such an extent. Ditto Turnbull. And, as indicated by Craigen and Robinson, Hastie was loaned out to Alloa with a view to preparing him for the first team. He had outgrown the youth team and needed to compete at a higher, tougher level. So he was not as far away from the first team as you suggest. In fact, had he not already featured? Similar to McGuire on loan at QOS. And Hastie's game time at Alloa was carefully managed by Craigen and Goodwin to ensure he could also get game time at Motherwell, to monitor his progress. You either trust in your youth and your planning, or you don't. Hastie and Turnbull were clearly earmarked as two that had an above average chance. Instead of protecting our investment of some 13 years we opted to utilise scarce resources to allow the likes of Taylor-Sinclair and Sammon to sit on the Bench, at best. Well, how did that work out? Nobody is saying that anybody who has a couple of good games for the youth/reserve team should have cash thrown at them. But we should protect exceptional talent that we have invested many years in developing.

I'm still waiting to hear whether you think Hastie might just have signed a new contract last Summer had he been offered one. When he had already been earmarked as a player with a better chance than most of making it. And at a time when their was a buzz about the place having reached two Cup Finals. That seems to be the point some people are making and which you seem keen to ignore. Of course you can't make players sign. We all know that. But the timing of any offer can make a huge difference and the Club may well have blown it with Hastie. I wonder what you would be saying if Turnbull had opted to leave as well, also belatedly having been offered an extended contract. Talent like Turnbull and Hastie possess is a rarity, particularly at a relatively small Club like Motherwell. And please don't compare them to the likes of Dom Thomas and Luke Watt. They are both way beyond that level

Not exactly as bad as you suggest per the SPFL rules dated 8 October 2018. There are time limits. "Unless otherwise agreed between the Clubs concerned, such agreed terms being set out in writing, signed by both Clubs and lodged with the Secretary, the balance or balances of Compensation, plus VAT at the standard rate, must be paid within 28 days of the date of publication of a Compensation Tribunal determination or, when an award in appropriate terms has been made by the Compensation Tribunal, of the occurrence or the relevant event or events. The Board may require interest to be paid on any balance or balances of Compensation from time to time due for payment and not paid until paid in full, at the rate of 2% above the base lending rate of the Bank of England as same may vary from time to time compounded on the first day of each calendar month" Elsewhere they specify that prior to the Tribunal, when the player is registered by the new team...... "In the event of the two Clubs concerned not reaching agreement on the amount of any Compensation payable, the new Club must, on the date of Scottish FA Registration or, if later, on the date of any first offer of Compensation, pay to the Player's former Club at least 50% of the highest amount offered or, as the case may be, offered, plus VAT at the standard rate. All offers of Compensation shall be in writing and shall be copied to the Secretary by recorded delivery post when they are sent to the Player’s former Club. In the event that the amount of Compensation ordered to be paid by a Compensation Tribunal is less than the amount previously paid in terms of this Rule F9 or if no Compensation is ordered to be so paid then the Club which has received such payment shall be liable to forthwith repay as a debt the amount overpaid or, where no payment is so ordered to be paid, the amount paid, to the Club which made such payment." So in the case of Ferguson to Aberdeen, Accies were entitled to receive the balance of the full fee of £237950 no later than 28 days from the Tribunal finding. And should earlier have received £50k (Half of what Aberdeen offered) when Ferguson was registered as a player by Aberdeen in time to play against Burnley.

In recent years Motherwell have had an excellent youth policy, when it comes to identifying and developing young players. As is common, some will reach a higher level than others. If, very shortly, 7 of the first team have been produced by our youth programme, then that will be a magnificent achievement and the Club deserve great credit. What concerns some is that in early January 2019 four of those exceptional talents were in a position to sign Pre Contract Agreements with whoever they liked and leave us with a much poorer financial return than anticipated and much weaker from a playing point of view. Fortunately three of those players opted to remain with us and hopefully the fourth will also go down that line. We got lucky this time, but really we should not have been exposed to such an extent.

Straight question which you have not addressed so far. If Motherwell had had the foresight to offer Hastie (and Turnbull ) extended contracts in the summer when the whole Club was on a high after two Cup Finals, do you think two exceptional players making their way in the game would have jumped at a decent offer with the strong possibilty of first team football in the near future? Our coaches had already identified both as players close to breaking into our first team. As an aside, to compare them with the likes of Thomas, Watt etc is like comparing apples with oranges. Even if ignoring the gulf in quality, and taking into account only attitude. If you want to compare them with anybody, can I suggest McFadden, McAllister and Murphy as youngsters. We are led to believe the Club was not in a position to make such offers in the Summer as all available funds were utilised to hand extended contracts to the likes of Newell and Gordon and bring in players such as Taylor-Sinclair, and Sammon on loan. Our Manager sought to strengthen the bench with those players rather than trust home grown youth. We were then repeatedly told that no further funds would be available until some players left. Ironically Taylor-Sinclair was then one of the players that left in January. If offers had been made to Hastie and Turnbull last August , and declined, then ,yes, your argument would hold water. You most certainly cannot make players sign. But the point you appear to overlook is that it seems no such offers were made as a different strategy was followed. At whose insistence we cannot be sure. That decision could ultimately cost the Club a fortune if Hastie goes on to have the career anticipated. Possibly losing out on McKinstrey in the long term is a bit more understandable as he was not as far advanced as others, But to run the risk of losing out on Hastie and Turnbull by allowing their contracts to run down to such an extent was negligent. And no, I don't think that every youth player who shows a modicum of talent should be signed up on the Dundee Utd model. But I do think every possible effort should be made to tie up exceptional talents such as Turnbull and Hastie before it gets to the stage that they can sign PCAs and walk away for a pittance compared to their potential future value. Particularly when those players had already turned down much bigger Clubs when signing for Motherwell previously. Unless of course you know for a fact that they were offered improved terms before January 2019 and refused to sign.

Last summer the Club was on a high after reaching two Cup Finals. The feel good factor was there and things should have been looking rosy for younger players looking to break into the first team . Craigen developed a youth/reserve team that was joy to watch, the players appeared to be having fun as well as learning required skills and attitude. Within that team there were at least four players with a much greater than average chance of making a very good career for themselves. To compare the likes of Turnbull , Hastie, Scott and McGuire to the likes of Watt and Thomas and even Erwin is just clouding the issue for justification purposes. Setting aside their undoubted greater ability, the current crop's attitude alone makes them a grade or two above those three. There is no comparison. The policy of utilising supposedly scarce funds on the likes of Sammon,, Taylor-Sinclair, Newell, Gordon was short sighted and whoever made those decisions blundered. I agree you cannot make players sign but does anyone honestly believe that last July those four youngsters would not have jumped at the chance of three year contracts and inclusion in the first team squad? And possibly on lesser terms than we recently extended to Turnbull and Scott. And the argument is also put forward that it was less risky financially to opt for Sammon etc. Well how exactly did that work out? Hopefully Hastie and McGuire do extend their contracts and the lack of belief/trust shown by the decision makers last summer acts as a lesson learned and does not hurt us too much financially. Or, from a fan perspective, on the pitch. Talent like Turnbull and Hastie does not come along that often and we cannot afford to lose it through our own inactivity and lack of foresight.

Motherwell now paying the admission fee on Saturday for those that went on Wednesday. Well done

Was there last night and disappointed that Killie did not stick to what they agreed. However, Killie are entitled to charge the full £22 if they want to. So £5, although annoying, is a fair concession. Several seasons ago Dundee Utd charged full admission price in similar circumstances. Thankfully not against us. Now if you think our own Club should make a gesture, how about they allow the voucher (to include those people who Killie took note of) to represent £5 towards a Fir Park ticket this season or towards a Season Ticket next season? A nice way to recognise the fans who made the worthless trip yesterday.

Jack Charlton v Leeds and possibly Gerson v Flamengo. Both in floodlit friendlies in 1960 I think

Livingstone had played for the Under 20s/Reserve team two days previously. OK, only 45 minutes, but that was probably a factor.....which Robinson ignored in his post match comments. Livingstone was unlucky that he had to end up playing for so much of the Celtic game. I'm sure he would have done fine if he had only been called upon for the last 20 minutes or so. I wonder how many others had played in a competitive match only two days earlier.