Dundee United v Motherwell 29/10/2022

[El Grew]

1 hour ago, steelboy said:

He's not got any other options. 

Could’ve brought on either Tierney and/or Moult up front with Van Veen and forced them into only having one forward up.

Oh and if Moult isn’t fit then why was he on the bench?

[grizzlyg]

Red card or not let's focus on the win. VAR screwed up last week so justice this week. Watt has a nice 5k a week deal to cheer him up which I certainly don't.  Let's all be happy bunnies tonight and enjoy some beers and watching strictly......whoops....I have said too much

[texanwellfan]

Good to see us be alert and take quick free kick that led to the goal. 

[GrahamH]

IMO the red card was correct. Watt’s reaction showed he knew he was in trouble as soon as he did it, he took the red card without complaint and gave a wee nod to Lamie (I think) on the way off as if acknowledging it was a bad tackle. 

[steelboy]

1 hour ago, El Grew said:

Could’ve brought on either Tierney and/or Moult up front with Van Veen and forced them into only having one forward up.

Oh and if Moult isn’t fit then why was he on the bench?

I would guess he's fit enough to chase a goal of we are bombing balls into the box like Saturday looking for an equaliser. But not fit enough to protect a lead. 

Tierney is a man down. All he does is lose the ball. 

[SteelmaninOZ]

And the gaffer has a smile on his face 

 

[Yorkyred]

Reading a couple of forums VAR is driving people apoplectic, they are going to need to chill out because it’s here, and things will never be the same.

[SteelmaninOZ]

 

[spudmfc]

6 hours ago, weeyin said:

Is that the BBC ratings? They are just randos clicking buttons, a lot of them not even at the game.

Fotmob

[Kmcalpin]

8 hours ago, Pepper said:

But that is no excuse for the players not working hard especially off the ball...

Thats been a feature of our play for quite some time now.  I often make the same comment but am not sure if thats only how it looks. Is it down to poor awareness, organisation, instructions?  As recently as the Aberdeen game last weekend they were working their socks off to close us down and harass us, where as we stood off them.  Whatever the reason, why make it easy for the opposition? I know we're limited for bodies just now but the midfield mix just doesn't seem right. Slattery is off form and I just don't know where Spittal fits into the team. I'd have Dean Cornelius starting every week - he brings drive and energy to the table that we so often lack.

[Yassin]

5 hours ago, Robbos boy said:

Wonderful day wonderful result, made better by Tony Watt's performance brilliant kicking the ball into the net for the goal, then his stupid challenge for red card. For those who thought it wasn't, read the papers tomorrow. Even predicted the result 

How was hospitality?

[Yabba's Turd]

29 minutes ago, Yassin said:

How was hospitality?

Don't encourage him FFS.

[Ya Bezzer!]

Watt challenge was never a red card and if people are saying it's the law then the law is a hinderance to the game and needs to be changed.

Reminded of, I think, one of the games from the last Euros when a played was sent off and a penalty given when there was absolutely no contact.  Think it was one of the Sweden games.  Anyway it was deemed dangerous play with no contact but I don't think there is even any force or aggression in Watt's actions.  Sure, give a foul, maybe even a booking, but a red card?

We have 5 wins in 13 which is reasonable but if you look closer 4 of those wins are away from home and 3 of them are shitefest 1-0s with a wee bit of luck through in.  

Again it just begs the question, how does a team like Motherwell compete and entertain at the same time?

[Ya Bezzer!]

10 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

Reading a couple of forums VAR is driving people apoplectic, they are going to need to chill out because it’s here, and things will never be the same.

I don't care if they get the decisions wrong or right.  I've lived with that for 40 years and we've already seen that VAR makes no difference on that standard.  However if there are 3 or 4 minute delays for refs to make decisions for things like goals then the game is done for me as a spectator sport.

 

[Pepper]

The Watt challenge is a perfect example of how something can look so much worse when you slow it down, and if you freeze it at the right time it can look horrendous. 

The freeze frame that we are all seeing will look identical to a tackle where the player has followed through and caused serious damage, the difference is Watt is already pulling back at that point but you just can't tell from a still image - that's why it's not even been given as a foul in real time then a red after review. 

The referee's really need some better training to recognise the difference between the two scenarios. 

If the law states none of the above matters and there was simply potential to cause an opposition player serious injury then it becomes a very difficult decision to challenge. 

 

[Pepper]

9 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Thats been a feature of our play for quite some time now.  I often make the same comment but am not sure if thats only how it looks. Is it down to poor awareness, organisation, instructions?  As recently as the Aberdeen game last weekend they were working their socks off to close us down and harass us, where as we stood off them.  Whatever the reason, why make it easy for the opposition? I know we're limited for bodies just now but the midfield mix just doesn't seem right. Slattery is off form and I just don't know where Spittal fits into the team. I'd have Dean Cornelius starting every week - he brings drive and energy to the table that we so often lack.

The contrast to when we had what felt like two Allan Campbells swarming everything that moved for 90 minutes is stark.

 

[grizzlyg]

Having watched highlights it's never a red and we would be raging if other way round. But.....we were cheated last week so Karma on our side this time. No doubt all sides will benefit and be denied by VAR.

[stv]

2 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I don't care if they get the decisions wrong or right.  I've lived with that for 40 years and we've already seen that VAR makes no difference on that standard.  However if there are 3 or 4 minute delays for refs to make decisions for things like goals then the game is done for me as a spectator sport.

 

VAR nae use for a flowing game like football. It’s going to end up as stop start as American foot ball to tv.  But it proves one thing Wullie Collum is just as shite behind the camera as he is on the park.

[Kmcalpin]

2 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

 Again it just begs the question, how does a team like Motherwell compete and entertain at the same time?

It depends what you mean by compete. If you mean win a cup or reach top 6 probably not. If you mean stay clear of relegation then maybe, just.

[joewarkfanclub]

Didnt see the game yesterday so cant comment. However, overall this season Ive felt reasonably entertained.

We havent always got what we deserved out of games, so our points total isnt what it might be, but our current peague position suggests we are competitive in the league.

We can always improve and with a couple of more reliable signings I think outwith the big 2, we can give anyone in the league a game.

[Kmcalpin]

A very importnat and indeed satisfying win. Watt's red card was downright wrong but this is the type of decision of we've very very rarely gotten at Tannadice over the decades and I missed it! The seethe from United fans would have made the  trip worth it -  a humourless and grim set of supporters if ever there was - East Stand patrons pale into insignificance by comparison. 

We ground out the win and that was about it. Just watched the highlights and some of our defending was horrendous. Even early on we defended far too deeply.  Again missed chances. We showed United far, far too much respect with both 10 and 11 men.

Still a wins a win! Happy days.

[Great Balls of Shire]

3 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Watt challenge was never a red card and if people are saying it's the law then the law is a hinderance to the game and needs to be changed.

Reminded of, I think, one of the games from the last Euros when a played was sent off and a penalty given when there was absolutely no contact.  Think it was one of the Sweden games.  Anyway it was deemed dangerous play with no contact but I don't think there is even any force or aggression in Watt's actions.  Sure, give a foul, maybe even a booking, but a red card?

We have 5 wins in 13 which is reasonable but if you look closer 4 of those wins are away from home and 3 of them are shitefest 1-0s with a wee bit of luck through in.  

Again it just begs the question, how does a team like Motherwell compete and entertain at the same time?

Yep, I think we are clutching at straws if we say that's a sending off, they're was a similar one in second half with Slattery, foot, studs up but he won ball , it was the only way he( slats)  could play ball so what can you do?

Anyway points in bag

[GazzyB]

A very poor performance yesterday with the ball, just couldn’t keep it for whatever reason.

 

Without the ball however I thought we were much better than the last few games. Dundee Utd rarely threatened in the second half despite us giving them the ball over and over again.

 

Not our finest performance but up to 6th and 4 points off of 3rd isn’t bad at all. Tynecastle next is a big un. I don’t think we will be in the bottom four but if we want to be challenging for third we need to start doing better against the likes of Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts, starting next weekend.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

Having watched highlights it's never a red and we would be raging if other way round. But.....we were cheated last week so Karma on our side this time. No doubt all sides will benefit and be denied by VAR.

Pretty sure McHugh got sent off on at least two occasions when there was no contact.  That might have been the Craig Thomson/Willie Collum effect right enough but the reason given was that, despite there being no contact, his challenges were reckless with potential of serious injury to an opponent. Intent or otherwise was not a factor as is still the case. And that was well before VAR and freeze frames. So the "interpretation" aspect which causes all the debate has existed for ages.

I do think it was a pretty harsh red card and agree if a foul had been given and a yellow issued that would have been sufficient. I don't think it was violent conduct. And I doubt VAR would have intervened.  My concern is that from less than 10 yards away and with a clear view, Mr Beaton saw nothing wrong with the challenge. There was high contact.

As long as referees continue to be incompetent VAR is needed and will repair some of the damage they cause, but only if the Authorities learn from early errors and there is a clear consistency and accountability. Given that it is those same incompetent referees that are operating VAR coupled with the lack of openness regarding inexplicable outcomes then sadly I fear we will continue to be frustrated by its use. The wagons appear to have been circled regarding Andrew Dallas not intervening last week. The referee missed the foul on Lamie but if he was not pulled up by Dallas, then I can understand why he called time. No apology or "We got it wrong and need to learn from our mistakes". That does not give me much hope for improvement.

Wonder whose turn it will to be aggrieved next week?

[weeyin]

4 hours ago, Pepper said:

The Watt challenge is a perfect example of how something can look so much worse when you slow it down, and if you freeze it at the right time it can look horrendous. 

The freeze frame that we are all seeing will look identical to a tackle where the player has followed through and caused serious damage, the difference is Watt is already pulling back at that point but you just can't tell from a still image - that's why it's not even been given as a foul in real time then a red after review. 

The referee's really need some better training to recognise the difference between the two scenarios. 

If the law states none of the above matters and there was simply potential to cause an opposition player serious injury then it becomes a very difficult decision to challenge. 

 

The ref gets to to see full speed, slowed down and freeze frame. He also knows the rules better than most fans. A good example of that is when Spurs had their goal disallowed in midweek. Most players, pundits and fans thought you can't be offside if the ball is played backwards, when there's no such rule. ( It's just that 99 times of out 100, when you pass the ball backwards there isn't anyone else in an offside position interfering with play.)

And then there are the rules that rarely, if ever, come into play. Did you know, for example, if a red card offence is committed and the offender can't be identified then the red card is given to the "senior team official in the technical area"?

For red card offences, the law is pretty vague. The relevant wording is "A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent" - the other part of that law is " or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play" which I think we can rule out in this case.

So the ref has a lot of latitude here. I'd likely have been upset if our player saw red for that, but given incidents like Mugabi's red against Hibs in the cup, it's no surprise to me when they happen.