Stuart Kettlewell discussion thread

[David]

Sacking a manager while we're sitting in the top six would be next level patter, really. 

[grizzlyg]

1 hour ago, David said:

Sacking a manager while we're sitting in the top six would be next level patter, really. 

It's a massive result today. I am still very frustrated with his selections. How he thinks Tavares merits a start ahead of Kaleta is beyond me.

However.....it stops the bad run and sets us up for 2 massive home games 

[StAndrew7]

19 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

It's a massive result today. I am still very frustrated with his selections. How he thinks Tavares merits a start ahead of Kaleta is beyond me.

However.....it stops the bad run and sets us up for 2 massive home games 

I did wonder if Kaleta was carrying a niggle. If that's the case and SK is playing Tavares in front of Koutroumbis, you have to question whether or not the latter has the quality required?

[texanwellfan]

I think SK has some glaring issues and perhaps some of his decisions are made based on info that we don’t have but overall I’m happy to keep him here. I think  keeping the same manager brings some much needed stability to our club. I don’t think there’s any doubt that the players play for him and I think overall he improves players individually. I think he is capable of maintaining our premiership status. I’m not sure that we will get an significantly better manager especially seeing how other clubs around us have done, with Aberdeen perhaps being the exception but then again, they probably have a bigger budget than us. Considering he is also a fairly inexperienced manager I’m sure he is only going to improve year upon year. Yes, perhaps he is a slow learner and stubborn but as just mentioned with experience I think his drawbacks will become less and his positives will grow. 

[AllyMax]

1 hour ago, texanwellfan said:

I think SK has some glaring issues and perhaps some of his decisions are made based on info that we don’t have but overall I’m happy to keep him here. I think  keeping the same manager brings some much needed stability to our club. I don’t think there’s any doubt that the players play for him and I think overall he improves players individually. I think he is capable of maintaining our premiership status. I’m not sure that we will get an significantly better manager especially seeing how other clubs around us have done, with Aberdeen perhaps being the exception but then again, they probably have a bigger budget than us. Considering he is also a fairly inexperienced manager I’m sure he is only going to improve year upon year. Yes, perhaps he is a slow learner and stubborn but as just mentioned with experience I think his drawbacks will become less and his positives will grow. 

I was wondering about this too. Tavares ahead of Kaleta being the obvious one. Remember when Biereth arrived here (with a slight injury, and after his injury sustained here at St Mirren), we were told that Arsenal physio staff dictated down to the minute literally, how much ha was allowed to play. Possibly Kaleta has a niggle and Wolves have dictated his minutes. Not in the know or anything, but it is a similar situation. If we're currently stuck for a RWB though, that doesn't explain away why Koutrumbis (or what ever his name is) is't getting a sniff of a start.

[santheman]

47 minutes ago, AllyMax said:

I was wondering about this too. Tavares ahead of Kaleta being the obvious one. Remember when Biereth arrived here (with a slight injury, and after his injury sustained here at St Mirren), we were told that Arsenal physio staff dictated down to the minute literally, how much ha was allowed to play. Possibly Kaleta has a niggle and Wolves have dictated his minutes. Not in the know or anything, but it is a similar situation. If we're currently stuck for a RWB though, that doesn't explain away why Koutrumbis (or what ever his name is) is't getting a sniff of a start.

I see Tavares being played there as a last resort type of situation as I can't imagine him being preferred over any of our other options for RB if they were fully fit, available and up to speed.

It's always hard putting a slant on something when you don't have all the facts.

[joewarkfanclub]

3 hours ago, santheman said:

I see Tavares being played there as a last resort type of situation as I can't imagine him being preferred over any of our other options for RB if they were fully fit, available and up to speed.

It's always hard putting a slant on something when you don't have all the facts.

Thats certainly my reading of it.

Bit of a left field decision otherwise....

[wellfan]

Before we begin, I’m not fishing, I’m merely trying to understand, other than the obvious points I’m about to make below, what people see in Kettlewell.

Other than maintaining our Premiership status, which is the primary goal of his job, I’m intrigued to see if anyone can outline any tangible improvements he’s made to both (a) himself as a manager and (b) the overall team?

A couple of obvious points to make to start with would be that his perseverance with Bair led to excellent financial and goal returns, and that he’s not afraid to give youngsters (e.g. Miller & Wilson) a lot of game time.

For me, the latter highlights that he’s a decent individual coach, but his in-game management and pre-game decisions indicate to me that’s he’s not a good overall team manager. His decision-making is often baffling and to his and the team’s detriment. It demonstrates a complete inability to learn, be it through stubbornness and/or inexperience and/or plain stupidity.

Whilst the former is a positive factor, these are young players that he inherited, and his over reliance on them suggests that he doesn’t trust his own signings and/or is incapable of signing the right type of experienced players to fit whatever his system actually is. There’s a real risk of overloading teenager’s at this level, both physically and mentally, so careful management of them is key. 

Now that I’ve addressed those obvious points, let’s return to my question above.

(a) Improvements to himself as a manager?

No. He’s almost two years into the job and continues to make strange decisions, opting to plug square pegs into round holes and often makes panicked wholesale substitutions when it’s too late. He generally struggles to adapt his system when an opposition manager makes in-game changes to counter his tactics.

It’s his team now and he’s shown me zero signs of having the ability to develop and improve. It’s the same issues on repeat, and he doesn’t have a Bair to negate his shite this season. We’ll likely have the same Kettlewell next season and the same questions will be asked of him and his decision-making and approach to games. Ad nauseam. 
 

(b) Improvements to the overall team?

No. We still lurch from crisis to crisis. Failed transfer windows, some predictable injuries, with the odd success, but on the whole poor, leading to more panic buying and a bloated squad. Then repeat. This cycle challenges the limited budget argument excuse and creates a dead weight issue every window.

The biggest weakening of the team this season has proven to be his failure to adequately replace Spittal and Bair. His system doesn’t work without those types. A good manager would’ve address these positions as a matter of urgency, but Kettlewell didn’t, and here we are, struggling to score from open play.

The big question is: is the team making progress under Kettlewell or are we stagnating? Maintaining the status quo would be fine if it wasn’t so awful to watch and didn’t put us at continual risk of capitulation. Putting the aspiration for regular victories aside, which will never be a weekly occurrence for us, people will begin to take their monies elsewhere if they’re continually gaslit into having to accept awful predictable crap as a substitute for some weekly entertainment and excitement. Kettlewell produces a team which, on the whole, is neither entertaining nor exciting. It’s a team not in transition, but a team that could be relegated very easily should the winds change.

In summary, I thought Alexander, for example, was an arrogant twat and was delighted to see him binned, but I never lost interest in following the team. With Kettlewell, however, he’s the first manager in recent memory who’s led me to the position of questioning whether to renew my season ticket and maintain my two WS memberships or not.

My view is that we’re merely treading water until he sees to it that the squad and football is reduced on quality year-on-year at the same time as decimating the budget to achieve that, which will lead to an exodus of paying fans.

Are we happy with that outlook under Kettlewell? I’m not. It’s crap. Or do others see future prosperity for both Kettlewell and the team? If so, what are you drinking?! 

[Kmcalpin]

The jury is still out for me. At our level, we'll never be successful, however you measure that, by playing open, attractive football. We have to be pragmatic to achieve anything and if that means being boring and physical then so be it.  What I don't like, is playing unexciting football which isn't successful. That said, I do like to watch attractive football. Times have changed and what was considered as being entertaining say 60 years ago is certainly not now. TV has brought the big boys into our living rooms. A staple diet of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Arsenal, Liverpool, Manchester United/City et al has changed perceptions forever. The bar is set at that level. For my part, I'd rather go and watch a local amateur game than any of that lot on TV or in person.

SK is still at an early stage in his MFC career. We've not had a lot of time to assess him. He's only had one summer to recruit his team. He kept us up after Steve Hammell's car crash reign and taken us to a League Cup semi final. He also brought in a fair bit of transfer income. He's not the most adventurous of managers and presided over a horrendous winless last season.

Drilling down a level, I agree that he's stubborn, seems reluctant to make changes and isn't the best tactician in the world. He's not been to quick to learn from his mistakes. I agree about not replacing Spittal or Bair, given his tactical preferences.  That genuinely puzzles me. In Spittal's case, perhaps Nicholson (with an injury record) was earmarked for that role. Had he recruited 2 similar types of players for those 2 roles, but they didn't work out then I could have understood his thinking. 

Should we achieve some combination of achievable targets this year - make top 6,  reach another semi final and/or reap a huge transfer fee (Lennon Miller?) then my opinion will change for the better.  However should we drop out of the cup without a whimper or finish in the bottom 2 or go on an another horrendous winless run my opinion might change for the worse.   

[David]

39 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Before we begin, I’m not fishing, I’m merely trying to understand, other than the obvious points I’m about to make below, what people see in Kettlewell.

What I see in Kettlewell is a 40-year-old manager who will have been a full-time, sole manager for two and a half years by February 2025.

He's still relatively new to management, and I’m sure he'd be the first to admit that there's plenty more for him to learn.

44 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Other than maintaining our Premiership status, which is the primary goal of his job, I’m intrigued to see if anyone can outline any tangible improvements he’s made to both (a) himself as a manager and (b) the overall team?

In his first full season, we finished 9th in the league, reached the fifth round of the Scottish Cup, and made it to the second round of the League Cup.

This season, we're currently sitting in the top six and have reached a cup semi-final.

These are tangible improvements so far.

While it’s difficult to predict where the team will end up by the end of the season, we can use the statistics from the 15 games played up to now, including a full set of fixtures, to create a rough projection of where we might finish and how the team could perform.

At the moment, we're averaging 1.467 points per game. If we maintain this pace, we should finish the season with around 56 points in total. For comparison, last season we averaged 1.132 points per game.

Teams finishing in 5th or 6th place typically end up with 50–60 points, so it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect that a 56-point season could see us finish in 5th or 6th position.

So, in terms of points, we’re looking at an improvement of 0.335 points per game, which translates to 12.73 extra points over the course of the season. This would obviously mean an improvement in our league placing as well. These two figures are closely linked and, by far, the most significant of all.

At present, we’re scoring 1.2 goals per game, down from 1.474 last season, with a projection of around 46 goals this season, compared to 56 last season. Our goal-scoring is an area that clearly needs improvement if things continue as they are.

It seems we're missing the goals of Theo Bair and Blair Spittal—two players we knew would be difficult to replace, and the stats so far suggest we haven’t quite managed it. There's clearly work to be done there.

Defensively, we’re averaging 1.533 goals conceded per game, compared to 1.553 last season. This suggests that our defensive performance is almost unchanged, with only a very slight improvement of less than one goal conceded overall.

Taking all of this into account, and using our current form to project the rest of the season, here's where we stand:

• Improved Points Per Game: On track for a significant improvement of 12.73 points over the season.
• Decreased Goals Scored: A notable reduction in offensive output (10.4 fewer goals this season).
• Slightly Better Defence: A minor improvement in goals conceded (a difference of 0.020 fewer goals).

On the financial side, Kettlewell has overseen the sales of Van Veen and Theo Bair. While he didn’t sign Van Veen, he was the manager who got the best out of him in the latter part of the season before we sold him for a fairly substantial fee.

So, I’d say he’s done quite well in that regard. The Theo Bair situation speaks for itself.

To answer your question, I’d say Kettlewell has done a solid job since taking over. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely. I'd say this applies across the whole club, which has experienced some disruption, especially with the absence of a CEO, which has no doubt impacted the smooth running of things behind the scenes.

As of today, I’d give Kettlewell a solid B-.

If the projections outlined above come to fruition and the averages play out as expected, I’d raise that to a B.

[santheman]

I think the time to judge him will be Feb/March time when all our injured players are hopefully back up to speed and available for selection and we see how any wheeling and dealing in the transfer market pans out.

 

[StAndrew7]

Ctrl C + Ctrl V from P&B:

I tend to agree with folk who are a bit fed up with it all, really.

There's just a general apathy for me right now. It feels like we'll be fine this season. Granted, after the last couple of years that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Am I happy we got to a semi-final and are in a better league position this December? Of course.

Am I happy with the baffling tactical decisions and team selections, poor attacking play, the persistent isolation of a striker (whom we paid six figures for) and making similar defensive mistakes to last season? No.

I've really got zero motivation to go to games; there's not a lot of excitement for me there because I know I'm going to be served up the same pish (both on the pitch and off of it). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Neither of those occasions will make me feel happy/delighted/like I enjoyed it, really. Someone reminded me that the Club is a business first and foremost and of course they're correct; but if I were a business and my product was as shite as what we offer on the park at times, I'd be a bit concerned.

I don't want Kettlewell to get the sack but I equally don't particularly like him as a manger in his current guise. Yes, he's young, it's his second ever managerial position etc. and that's fine; but you'd expect given his own knowledge of that, he'd be willing to accept his mistakes and failings and learn from them, rather than constantly blaming referees and others for our defeats. Add in to all that his persisting with tactics and players in certain positions that (blatantly at points) just don't work.

For such a "humble guy" he can't half go on like someone who's full of himself and his own ability/importance at times. I don't mind someone who's a bit more erudite and expressive (at times it's quite refreshing hearing stuff outside the usual cliches) but there's also the need for brevity (the irony of this point in a post this long is not lost on me), rather than just saying the same thing in four or five different ways.

To be slightly more positive; it seems like the penny might be dropping with SK that Stama needs help from someone up top and it appears that it's clicking with Watt and also with Maswanhise before he mysteriously disappeared over the last few games (I wonder if he's come back with a niggle post international duty). With Nicholson, SOD and others returning to the team, there's definitely cause for some optimism moving forward but our run of fixtures until mid-January isn't easy.

[joewarkfanclub]

Reading the posts above, I dont think most of us are a million miles away in terms of our assessments or the way we feel.

The main difference is the threshold for change.

Binning a manager always costs us financially. Not just in paying that manager off, but the inevitable turnaround of players when the new guy wants to clear the decks.

You could argue, as Wellfan does, that not binning Kettlewell in itself is wasting money as he will inevitably fail so giving him more windows to sign players isnt wise. But for me, at our level we need to try and get stability and allow a manager to learn and improve, otherwise it just ends up a merry-go-round.

Kettlewell is certainly frustrating as hell at times, but whoever comes in after him is going to have to deal with the exact same circumstances, so sometimes its better the devil you know.

He knows the players, he knows their faults. He is in the best position to know who needs moved on and who can still contribute. He seems to be able to improve players (KVV, Bair and maybe now Tony Watt).

His transfer business has been a bit hit and miss, but that applies to pretty much every Motherwell manager in my lifetime, and his success rate is better than a fair few. Its just the market we operate in.

He doesnt need to change much to keep me happy. Progress to a less defensive more entertaining set up as our better players return. Play players in their natural positions. Score a few more goals, keep a few more clean sheets. Make top 6. Beat St Johnstone in the Cup and sell Lennon Miller for £5m plus with loan back until the end of the season.

Simples!

 

[AllyMax]

20 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

You could argue, as Wellfan does, that not binning Kettlewell in itself is wasting money as he will inevitably fail so giving him more windows to sign players isnt wise. But for me, at our level we need to try and get stability and allow a manager to learn and improve, otherwise it just ends up a merry-go-round.

 

How many managers have left top division clubs in Scotland in the last 20 years for any other reason than failure ?

I know there are  few exceptions, but in general, managers get fired or 'leave by mutual consent' 95% of the time. When I started going to games regularly, Willie McLean was in charge. he created a team that challenged the old firm regularly in matches, got conned out of a semi final win over the h**s and is largely lauded as the best team never to win a trophy. He was still sacked a couple of years later for a poor results, as have most of our managers since. It's the same for every other club. 90% of managers ultimately fail and get the sack.

[joewarkfanclub]

20 minutes ago, AllyMax said:

How many managers have left top division clubs in Scotland in the last 20 years for any other reason than failure ?

I know there are  few exceptions, but in general, managers get fired or 'leave by mutual consent' 95% of the time. When I started going to games regularly, Willie McLean was in charge. he created a team that challenged the old firm regularly in matches, got conned out of a semi final win over the h**s and is largely lauded as the best team never to win a trophy. He was still sacked a couple of years later for a poor results, as have most of our managers since. It's the same for every other club. 90% of managers ultimately fail and get the sack.

My point entirely.....

[texanwellfan]

His other achievement not mentioned is taking 3 points home from Ibrox. 
 

I understand the concerns and why people are not keen on SK but I’d say we have actually seen some decent football from us earlier on in the season that seems to have been forgotten about but definitely agree that some recent performances have been rank. I’d also agree that he is a frustratingly slow learner or perhaps a bit narrow minded on how we should play. However, all in all I don’t think he’s worse than many experienced managers who are set in their ways. At lease there’s some hope, with SK being a fairly new manager, that he will learn and adapt. I’d rather move forward with the stability of keeping SK rather than changing managers every two years and not just because of the financial benefits. I think we have a better chance of maintaining a settled team/squad and achieving “success” by having the same long term manager. Of course we have to sell players who attract interest and can financially benefit the club from being sold but if we can maintain same basic core with minor adjustments year on year, that’s better than managers coming in every two years in with different styles of play and clearing out the playing staff to replace them with players they like. I also think that SK has shown some skill in developing individuals as well as keeping team morale up, attributes that may help us attract some good players. 
   I’m probably on the minority but i thought we played some good football when we got beat 4-1 at Dundee. We lost the plot, mentally, for 10 minutes and it was a terrible score line but for a lot of that game there was some nice football. Granted, St Mirren first half was woeful but better second half. With players coming back to fitness I think we will see more good than bad performances. 

[wellfan]

A donkey of the highest calibre, and unfortunately he’ll be getting yet another transfer window to further bloat the squad with crap.

[joewarkfanclub]

3 hours ago, wellfan said:

A donkey of the highest calibre, and unfortunately he’ll be getting yet another transfer window to further bloat the squad with crap.

Or an average Scottish Premiership level manager who makes his fair share of mistakes, has signed some diddies, but has also signed some decent players and somehow has us sitting top 6 despite one of the worst injury crises I have seen in my lifetime.

The football is shite to watch and he has deserved criticism at various points, but a donkey of the highest calibre would have us bottom of the league surely?

[wellfan]

3 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

The football is shite to watch and he has deserved criticism at various points, but a donkey of the highest calibre would have us bottom of the league surely?

There’s plenty of the season left for him to live up to this accolade. And the only reason I’m maintaining my position on him is because he is so fundamentally incapable of learning  from his mistakes or developing his managerial and tactical approach. 

[joewarkfanclub]

3 hours ago, wellfan said:

There’s plenty of the season left for him to live up to this accolade. And the only reason I’m maintaining my position on him is because he is so fundamentally incapable of learning  from his mistakes or developing his managerial and tactical approach. 

To be fair, you have been consistent in your disapproval! 😉

Some of your criticism is absolutely justified and the hyperbole can be quite entertaining!

[wellfan]

31 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

To be fair, you have been consistent in your disapproval! 😉

Some of your criticism is absolutely justified and the hyperbole can be quite entertaining!

You’re welcome. What’s a football forum without hyperbole, eh?! 

[grizzlyg]

Defended him most of time but feels like not learning from mistakes....but hey....remember he signed Theo Bair!! 🤣🤣

Ps. Happy birthday to a well legend...but enough about me!!..... Stevie Kirk 62 today 

[smiddy]

Hi heedz that far up his own arse at times. He canny see his mistakes 

anyway he just talks round in a circle for 10 mins and diversifys away from the subject by talking about budgets and our injury crisis 

[SteelmaninOZ]

2 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

Defended him most of time but feels like not learning from mistakes....but hey....remember he signed Theo Bair!! 🤣🤣

Ps. Happy birthday to a well legend...but enough about me!!..... Stevie Kirk 62 today 

Legend 

[grizzlyg]

46 minutes ago, SteelmaninOZ said:

Legend 

Awwww shucks 🤪🤪