Motherwell v St Mirren 28/09/2024

[steelboy]

It's not the 1990s. You can't carry a player who contributes so little on the ball these days and if you are also playing 5 defenders as well it'll end up where we are with average possession in the 30s.

[StAndrew7]

4 minutes ago, steelboy said:

It's not the 1990s. You can't carry a player who contributes so little on the ball these days and if you are also playing 5 defenders as well it'll end up where we are with average possession in the 30s.

*And 4th in the league and in a cup semi final.

[Cameron_Mcd]

There's a difference between someone not being a 'creative midfielder' and someone offering absolutely nothing of worth on the ball, with our system we can't afford to carry passengers like we do with Davor. Ideally you drop Miller deeper and drop Davor to the bench to be used for a bit of energy towards the end of a game.

[steelboy]

3 hours ago, steelboy said:

I think we might be able to appeal the red card as it wasn't that different from the one where the St Johnstone player handballed on the line at close range at Celtic Park last year which wasn't even a pen. I've no problem with a penalty here but I think it's fair to argue that he was trying to block the ball legally as best he could.

In exactly the same situation John Souttar wasn't even booked. Get the appeal in!

[wellup83]

Just watched John Soutar handball in the 6 yard box preventing a certain goal. No action given other than the penalty. Shambles.

[joewarkfanclub]

34 minutes ago, steelboy said:

It's not the 1990s. You can't carry a player who contributes so little on the ball these days and if you are also playing 5 defenders as well it'll end up where we are with average possession in the 30s.

Its the age old dilemma for a club our size.

Do we try and play more football at the risk of losing more games.

Or do we continue as we are playing more pragmatic, but ultimately winning football.

It would be nice if we could play more football and keep winning games, but it doesnt always work out that way.

Personally, I think with a few tweaks and the likes of Paton and Slattery coming back into the team we wont be far away.

Until then, I think we are stuck with a Davor/Halliday double act.

Not my personal preference, but it seems to be SKs.......

[weeyin]

Even if it's not SK's preference, he's not going to change it while we're winning games.

[StAndrew7]

21 minutes ago, steelboy said:

It's not the 1990s. You can't carry a player who contributes so little on the ball these days and if you are also playing 5 defenders as well it'll end up where we are with average possession in the 30s.

I'll concede that point, but there needs to at least be some acknowledgment of the fact Davor isn't the only one who's the issue in the middle of the park.

Halliday is just as bad and (I think) worse because he's able to hide in the centre circle. Davor is the one going deep to receive the ball just about every time.

I do think Sparrow can be the energy we're missing in the middle for now but he's (rightly) been held back until he's up to speed.

[steelboy]

1 minute ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Its the age old dilemma for a club our size.

Do we try and play more football at the risk of losing more games.

Or do we continue as we are playing more pragmatic, but ultimately winning football.

 

I don't think playing more football will risk us losing more games. The Aberdeen game and to a lesser extent the St Johnstone and Dundee United game showed that we looked a lot better when we were actually trying to play some football. 

Our good start is pretty much down to Oxborough and Halliday and Miller's set pieces. In the league we are +6 goals if you just count set pieces, penalties and own goals. In the cup the same stat is +5. We haven't conceded a goal from a set piece in the first 12 games of the season which is a huge turnaround from the shambles last year.

We probably won't continue like this but at the same time we can easily get better from open play.

[joewarkfanclub]

13 minutes ago, wellup83 said:

Just watched John Soutar handball in the 6 yard box preventing a certain goal. No action given other than the penalty. Shambles.

Who was that against?

I cant find it

[steelboy]

Just now, joewarkfanclub said:

Who was that against?

I cant find it

They are playing Hibs right now.

 

[StAndrew7]

This is data for the last calendar year from Wyscout on our midfield.

Only midfielder we have playing more forward passes than Davor is Miller and he also has the most defensive successes as well as the best pass completion in a number of areas.

[mio]

13 minutes ago, wellup83 said:

Just now, joewarkfanclub said:

Who was that against?

I cant find it

Against hibs. Souttar blocked a shot on the goal line with his arm. Loads of similarities with big Casey but its rules are different at ibrox. Not even booked 

[Spiderpig]

12 minutes ago, steelboy said:

In exactly the same situation John Souttar wasn't even booked. Get the appeal in!

How is it the same ffs, souter wasn't red carded so no appeal required. Anyone who thinks Casey should  not have been sent off yesterday is talking shite it was a clear handball on the line preventing a certain goal, none of the players complained, VAR confirmed the refs call so the correct decision was made. Why waste money on an appeal that's never going to be upheld.

Casy took one for the team, he made a brilliant save to stop the goal and Oxborough done the same to save the pen.

[joewarkfanclub]

1 minute ago, steelboy said:

I don't think playing more football will risk us losing more games. The Aberdeen game and to a lesser extent the St Johnstone and Dundee United game showed that we looked a lot better when we were actually trying to play some football. 

Our good start is pretty much down to Oxborough and Halliday and Miller's set pieces. In the league we are +6 goals if you just count set pieces, penalties and own goals. In the cup the same stat is +5. We haven't conceded a goal from a set piece in the first 12 games of the season which is a huge turnaround from the shambles last year.

We probably won't continue like this but at the same time we can easily get better from open play.

Thats why I think tweaks to the current set up are the way to go.

I think Davor or Halliday are probably fine by themselves just now, at least until Paton and/or Slattery are back.

Its both of them together I have an issue with rught now.

For me, dropping Miller into his natural position and putting Sparrow into the midfield further forward would allow us to press further up, support the front players and retin the ball more.

Unfortunately SK seems to want to use a pecking order in team selection and Sparrow is behind Halliday and Davor in that order.

[joewarkfanclub]

5 minutes ago, steelboy said:

They are playing Hibs right now.

 

Thats why I cant find it! 😆😆😆

[steelboy]

1 minute ago, mio said:

Against hibs. Souttar blocked a shot on the goal line with his arm. Loads of similarities with big Casey but its rules are different at ibrox. Not even booked 

Neil McCann was adamant it was a red for Casey on Sportscene last night but on the commentary for this game didn't even mention that it could be a potential card.

Last night Alistair Johnston blatantly handled it in the box at 0-0 and they just laughed it off. 

Collum's new rules obviously include giving the Old Firm even more advantages.

[steelboy]

2 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

 

Casy took one for the team, he made a brilliant save to stop the goal and Oxborough done the same to save the pen.

That's exactly what Souttar just did.

[steelboy]

https://x.com/ScotlandSky/status/1840359206660067460

 

[mio]

2 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Neil McCann was adamant it was a red for Casey on Sportscene last night but on the commentary for this game didn't even mention that it could be a potential card.

Last night Alistair Johnston blatantly handled it in the box at 0-0 and they just laughed it off. 

Collum's new rules obviously include giving the Old Firm even more advantages.

What chance do we have with refereeing consistency when the pundits do exactly the same. 
I do think Casey’s was a red by the way, so if that was a red, the the same should apply with souttar. Ive no doubt if it was a hibs player he’d be off.

[Spiderpig]

2 minutes ago, steelboy said:

That's exactly what Souttar just did.

Correct, definite pen but he did not deny a certain goal, Butland had the ball covered if Souttar had missed it so no red card required. 

[steelboy]

8 minutes ago, mio said:

What chance do we have with refereeing consistency when the pundits do exactly the same. 
I do think Casey’s was a red by the way, so if that was a red, the the same should apply with souttar. Ive no doubt if it was a hibs player he’d be off.

They're both within a yard of the player hitting the shot so i'd say a red card is harsh.

[joewarkfanclub]

3 minutes ago, steelboy said:

https://x.com/ScotlandSky/status/1840359206660067460

 

Havent seen it in real time obviously, but Souttar isnt right on the line and the goalkeeper is behind him.

Is that a certain goalscoring opportunity?

FWIW, I dont think Caseys is that clear cut.

It hits his hand on the line no doubt, but I think there is an argument to be had over whether it was deliberate or whether he made his body bigger.

Personally, I think the answer to both is no, but it may not matter depending on the current wording of the laws surrounding such incidents 

[Onthefringes]

7 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Correct, definite pen but he did not deny a certain goal, Butland had the ball covered if Souttar had missed it so no red card required. 

Casey wasn’t sent off for denying a certain goal. Butland’s positioning counts for nothing when both offences deny a clear goalscoring opportunity… consistency is key.

[weeyin]

2 minutes ago, Onthefringes said:

Casey wasn’t sent off for denying a certain goal. Butland’s positioning counts for nothing when both offences deny a clear goalscoring opportunity… consistency is key.

The IFAB law for the red card is that the handball has to be deliberate:
 

Quote

 

A player, substitute or substituted player who commits any of the following offences is sent off:

- denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by committing a deliberate handball offence (except a goalkeeper within their penalty area)

 

 

I agree consistency is key and there is a case to be made for Casey's intent, but Souttar's didn't look deliberate to me.