2025/26 Ins & Outs Discussion

[weeyin]

40 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Yes please. And it suggests JBA has replacements in mind.

Quite honestly I think we don't have any central defenders ....by trade or makeshift...that merit a first team place. So I'm hoping we see more than one depart. To be replaced by at least two that are comfortable playing out as the Manager expects. Might save me a few 'moments'. 

I really hope so. We have been crying out for decent central defenders since Hartley & Aldred left us.

[Mccus28]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

Kofi Balmer being touted about? Maybe a good move for all parties concerned?

I pray this is true

I do, to be fair, like Gordon as a centre half and with a decent footballer beside him, it would maje for a good partnership imo

[weeyin]

I'm not sure Gordon is equipped to play out from the back, but I'm OK with him if he can.

[stv]

Gordon is solid,he just had shite around him last year.

[weeyin]

1 minute ago, stv said:

Gordon is solid,he just had shite around him last year.

But do you trust him to put his foot on the ball and pass to a team mate? 

He's been a bit hit or miss in that department so far this season (e.g. his underhit pass that led to the pen against Hertha), but hopfeully that will improve.

[stv]

9 minutes ago, weeyin said:

But do you trust him to put his foot on the ball and pass to a team mate? 

He's been a bit hit or miss in that department so far this season (e.g. his underhit pass that led to the pen against Hertha), but hopfeully that will improve.

First phase of last season he was doing just that, strolled thru the games. Then the SK shite ball got to him. 

[grizzlyg]

I like Balmer as a person and always someone that has taken the club to heart. However if we can get money for him then I would definitely take it but we MUST get 2 centre halves in

[dennyc]

29 minutes ago, weeyin said:

But do you trust him to put his foot on the ball and pass to a team mate? 

He's been a bit hit or miss in that department so far this season (e.g. his underhit pass that led to the pen against Hertha), but hopfeully that will improve.

I agree 100%. He looks uncomfortable playing out with too many passes playing our midfielders into trouble or being intercepted. His punts upfield have been closer to me than our strikers. He also seems to think whatever goalie we play has the ball skills of Leo Messi. He did fine for St J playing as an out and out stopper CB but that limited role does not suit our brave new world. He needs to show he can adapt or I think JBA will look elsewhere. Time is running out for him to prove himself. Saturday would be a good start.

[AllyMax]

5 hours ago, dennyc said:

Just to add to the complications and confusion. It really is a minefield. 

Clubs who are losing a youngster (despite offering a new contract) very often do a deal with the new Club that bypasses the compensation rules that apply to cross border only movement. Like I believe we did with McKinstry to Leeds. Maybe building  in a larger up front fee with a lower sell on %. Or the other way round. That may suit both Clubs depending upon their financial situation at the time. 

For internal transfers the compensation rules usually do not apply. Like with Hastie to Rangers. (Individual Associations can adopt the International rules if they like, but Scotland don’t). So we did a deal with Rangers rather than go to a dodgy tribunal whose decision is final and a one off payment. Sometimes with no add on %. So you can get screwed. I understand we got £350k for Hastie plus decent add on had he moved on for big money. A Tribunal might not have been so generous. We will never know. 

Best recent example of a tribunal outcome is Lewis Ferguson to Aberdeen. Accies got £250k and a small add on %, the level of which was not disclosed. No appeal allowed despite Accies going public that they felt hard done to. Compare that to our Hastie deal. Aberdeen certainly scored when he moved to Italy. Accies may have still been due further training compensation if Ferguson had then left  Italy before a certain age….. but I’m not 100% sure on that. It is debatable and not specifically covered in the rules I read. 

I think Motherwell have actually done pretty well over the years, often successfully negotiating with the new Club. Bailey Rice a recent example.  Certainly for youngsters not fully established in our first team. We were unable to negotiate a better deal for MJ though as Graz were happy to go with the set compensation arrangements. No discussion. The ball was in their court as Max had decided to move on. No bad feeling from me on that one as he did what he thought best for himself. And he had only joined us age 12 and appeared in under 20 games for our first team. So very different from Miller.
We also lost out initially  on Cadden as the US were not in the International arrangement. And when they signed up under pressure from the ruling bodies, they were regarded as a lower tier country where lower amounts were due. 

History wise. After the Bosman ruling that players could just leave at Contract end with no compensation due (in line with other occupations) Clubs from several countries approached UEFA and FIFA asking them to set up a scheme  that rewarded Clubs for developing youngsters. Until they came up with the current scheme Clubs were due nothing. That was seen as a barrier to youth development. So why bother developing kids? The present arrangement is something that helps. Covers cross border only though which is a flaw in the system imo. Like many countries, Scotland opted to go to a tribunal for internal transfers if Clubs do not agree a deal. At least that recognises the need for some reward for youth development I guess. But it is not perfect. 
 

That’s my take on things anyway. Others may know differently. Told you it was a nightmare.😀

 

 

100% spot on. The only thing is now that the governing bodies should be updating these arrangements to take account of current transfer market trends. There were no £160 MILLION transfers when these development fees were introduced. Current dev fees should reflect current transfer market fees.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, AllyMax said:

100% spot on. The only thing is now that the governing bodies should be updating these arrangements to take account of current transfer market trends. There were no £160 MILLION transfers when these development fees were introduced. Current dev fees should reflect current transfer market fees.

Again an issue that needs addressed.

The Training Compensation that applies when a young player leaves his parent club (eg. Max Johnston to Graz) is based on some magic calculation linked to ages 12 to 21.  A set fee per year developed. Like you I don't think that has kept pace with the market.

The Solidarity Compensation which relates to moves thereafter (eg. if MJ joined Juventus tomorrow) is % based so will increase with the market.   5% of the full transfer fee is hived off and shared to those that developed a player from age 12 to 21. Pro rata. . It certainly amounts to very little if MJ moves for £3m. Perhaps £125k only. We would be due around 7 years worth of the 5%.  So maybe that % needs to be upped to 10 or 20% in line with commonly agreed add ons? Seems reasonable

Also the fact that both schemes apply to cross border moves only is a joke. For transfers within the same Country I think UEFA wanted to leave the local Association to deal with it. Maybe because of volumes or maybe to not stand on the home Authoritie's toes. Scotland could just adopt the same schemes if they wanted but that would require common sense. Accies felt they were shortchanged with the outcome of the Ferguson Tribunal.

[Big Wispy Flossy]

I think the 2025 version of Liam Gordon is every bit as bad as kofi balmer. Balmers arguably been better in the league cup games

[weeyin]

2 hours ago, AllyMax said:

100% spot on. The only thing is now that the governing bodies should be updating these arrangements to take account of current transfer market trends. There were no £160 MILLION transfers when these development fees were introduced. Current dev fees should reflect current transfer market fees.

Our CEO was talking about that a few months ago. It's crazy that there hasn't been an update to the fee structure. 

[grumpy]

I may be wrong about this (I usually am) but I think when the compensation scheme was introduced, the fee was based on what the selling club offered as a salary to the departing player and not what the buying club were offering, This gives a huge advantage to the "big" club, but, hey-ho, who wants to upset the apple cart.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, grumpy said:

I may be wrong about this (I usually am) but I think when the compensation scheme was introduced, the fee was based on what the selling club offered as a salary to the departing player and not what the buying club were offering, This gives a huge advantage to the "big" club, but, hey-ho, who wants to upset the apple cart.

I found  a report on training Compensation and the Solidarity Scheme. States that Uefa and individual Associations decided upon the amount it took to train a player on an annual basis and came up with a payment table. Then they took into account the level of each team and adjusted the fee based on that. I did not find anything about wages offered by either club as being a factor in the calculation. Not saying that was not added later but I cannot confirm. 

I tried to copy the calculation section and post it here but every time I tried it was blacked out. Not sure why. And I could not figure out a way to post it.

I searched ' How is training compensation calculated by Uefa' in Google and then clicked on the top result ' E A Sports Law' . If interested, stick with it for a few paragraphs and you'll find the bit I am quoting from. 

 

For info, the Yanks were late in joining the scheme and initially placed their Clubs in the lowest possible grading (4).... as a way to minimise payments. Cadden was the first real test of their stance. In time they were forced to elevate the grading of the US teams to ensure fairness.. 

[Kmcalpin]

At the end of the day its the fans who wield the power. Stop watching EPL and Euro games on TV and buying their clubs kit and the mega money will dry up.  

[grumpy]

10 hours ago, dennyc said:

I found  a report on training Compensation and the Solidarity Scheme. States that Uefa and individual Associations decided upon the amount it took to train a player on an annual basis and came up with a payment table. Then they took into account the level of each team and adjusted the fee based on that. I did not find anything about wages offered by either club as being a factor in the calculation. Not saying that was not added later but I cannot confirm. 

I tried to copy the calculation section and post it here but every time I tried it was blacked out. Not sure why. And I could not figure out a way to post it.

I searched ' How is training compensation calculated by Uefa' in Google and then clicked on the top result ' E A Sports Law' . If interested, stick with it for a few paragraphs and you'll find the bit I am quoting from. 

 

For info, the Yanks were late in joining the scheme and initially placed their Clubs in the lowest possible grading (4).... as a way to minimise payments. Cadden was the first real test of their stance. In time they were forced to elevate the grading of the US teams to ensure fairness.. 

I think my memory is of internal transfers, eg, Ferguson from Accies to Aberdeen.

As I said, I may be wrong.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, grumpy said:

I think my memory is of internal transfers, eg, Ferguson from Accies to Aberdeen.

As I said, I may be wrong.

You could be right on the same country moves. Each country can apply their own thinking as not bound by International criteria as set out. Our lot are all very secretive about how they arrive at a figure and I believe  Accies said they were warned not to reveal any details. All they could do was register how unhappy they were. Just shows the nonsense of not adopting the rules that apply cross border. That would be much more open and consistent. 

No wonder Clubs often work out a deal to avoid a Tribunal up here. 

[robsterwood]

Got to think Mwell not getting required offer from Bologna or Udinese. Both sold players recently and are cash rich. Think we should be looking at other clubs as reported there is interest in France and Germany.

[El Grew]

13 minutes ago, robsterwood said:

Got to think Mwell not getting required offer from Bologna or Udinese. Both sold players recently and are cash rich. Think we should be looking at other clubs as reported there is interest in France and Germany.

Worrying for him that there’s been no suitable concrete offer so far.

[Mccus28]

I honestly just wish it over now for him and the club.

 

Its actually quite boring now

[weeyin]

The endless stories based on guesses and empty speculation are certainly boring, but that's standard for transfer windows where the media needs to report on "breaking news" 24 x 7.

In reality, there isn't really anything unusual happening - it just so happens it's one of our players involved.