MJC_MKI Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 The 'intimidation' at games against either Celtic or Rangers isn't as bad as some folk make out. It is there to an extent, but there is never any serious bother at the ground or in the town center, or at least none that I've ever heard of in recent times. I know there's always the odd shout or punch thrown, especially if they've lost - or even if they've won, although I would say that that is more likely to be the case with Celtic fans than the other lot(And that is just my own personal opinion incase anyone takes offense at me singling one of them out), but nothing too major. To be honest, I've seen Hibs & Aberdeen fans causing more bother in Motherwell in recent years than either half of the OF, eg. the Horseshoe's windows getting put in and casuals 'making their presence known' etc. I don't doubt that it was alot worse back in the 70s and 80s when the OF came to town though, when there was a lot more of them and no segregation inside the ground, as some of the older Well fans would testify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazzie Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Folk shouting at each other with the odd punch being thrown is no big deal to you or I, but if I was elderly or I had kids at the game with me, I doubt it's a situation I'd want to be putting myself in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfc123 Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 Aye, me too, and what doesn't help is that our club (sorry Leann!), the local pubs (except JDs), the police and stewards have contributed to that over the years I've been going to games. Then you'll get the Cooper busy with 'Well fans. I fail to see how the police, stewards and local pubs have contributed to this ....... publicans in particular would be stupid not to take the business on offer and rightly so will welcome anyone willing to spend money. Re the police and stewards I'm struggling to see your point. The keeping back of the fans in the main stand was a first I believe and knowing that some of our local constabulary read these posts then perhaps consideration will be given to holding back the south stand next time as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazzie Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I'm not saying I can't understand why they do it - of course I can, but they still do. Landlords are businessmen at the end of the day, so of course they'll let the unwashed hordes take over their pub and fill their tills. The majority of police officers are Old Firm fans, and Strathclyde Police have a clear bias towards all things weegie-related. If they waded in and started chucking out h**s everytime they sang the Sash then their problems wouldn't start and end with that action, like it would if they throw out a punter in the East Stand for dropping a bovril. That day, it would cause mayhem outside the ground, on the trains back to weegieland, etc and then it would be all over the news the following day, and a can of worms would be well and truly opened. On the other hand, you can launch a few home fans in the cells for the night, your figures look hunky-dory and you never hear another word said about it. Because nobody cares about the wee teams as it's not us that sells the papers and fills the stadiums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 I'm not saying I can't understand why they do it - of course I can, but they still do. Landlords are businessmen at the end of the day, so of course they'll let the unwashed hordes take over their pub and fill their tills. The majority of police officers are Old Firm fans, and Strathclyde Police have a clear bias towards all things weegie-related. If they waded in and started chucking out h**s everytime they sang the Sash then their problems wouldn't start and end with that action, like it would if they throw out a punter in the East Stand for dropping a bovril. That day, it would cause mayhem outside the ground, on the trains back to weegieland, etc and then it would be all over the news the following day, and a can of worms would be well and truly opened. On the other hand, you can launch a few home fans in the cells for the night, your figures look hunky-dory and you never hear another word said about it. Because nobody cares about the wee teams as it's not us that sells the papers and fills the stadiums. Don't forget some of them are actually feart tae try and lift an Old Firm fan cos of the numbers. Play safe and target the provincials, that's their policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted September 16, 2009 Report Share Posted September 16, 2009 i don't get the intimidation thing at all. You might not, but real or imaginary, many of our fans over the years have done. This dip in home attendances at OF games has been going on for as long as I've been going to FP and probably well before that. Many fans realise that crowds can be boisterous and of course that does add to the atmosphere but they don't like explicit sectarianism or streams of foul mouthed abuse. I'm no prude but it seemed to me last weekend that some of our guests couldn't utter a single sentence without an expletive. That kind of behaviour deters many folk from going to games especially those with families. If culprits behaved in the same way in the street they'd be done for breach of the peace and rightly so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 i was too busy intimidating celtic fans for any of that. when the second went we jumped into the row in front and grabbed the undercover tim in front of us and let him join right in our celebrations I was at the game myself that day and can assure you that the well fans over on the far left hand side were outnumbered 6 to 1. Didny stop me bouncing aroun like a loonie though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 You might not, but real or imaginary, many of our fans over the years have done. This dip in home attendances at OF games has been going on for as long as I've been going to FP and probably well before that. Many fans realise that crowds can be boisterous and of course that does add to the atmosphere but they don't like explicit sectarianism or streams of foul mouthed abuse. I'm no prude but it seemed to me last weekend that some of our guests couldn't utter a single sentence without an expletive. That kind of behaviour deters many folk from going to games especially those with families. If culprits behaved in the same way in the street they'd be done for breach of the peace and rightly so. I disagree with those points mate sorry. Maybe I'm a wee bit longer in the tooth tho - but as guys like Special AKA and fatcalf will tell you - supporting 'well at Fir Park on an OF day in the 70s and 80s was an Olympic Sport. you either mingled with them on the terracing behind either goal, headed to the enclosure (the terracing used to be open in front of the Main Stand) flitted to the Main itself or if you were a brave un you manned the thin C&A line in the covered enclosure (East Stand) - the latter being the choir area. Over the years we complained about poor segregation and an area for 'well fans and slowly but surely more area was set aside for us and more and more people started to support the team. hat's of to John Chapman for listening to that at the time. My own personal opinion is that the well support grew and grew til the late nineties early naughties until we were in the position when we had a decent support in the stadium. A huge turnaround from where we were in the 70s. For various reasons - intimidation not being one of them (well not the main one anyway) - the whole thing has gone back the way and these are the things that the club (re pricing etc) need to look at. While I've acknowledged that the prices are 'breathtaking' and there's an argument that some couldn't legitimately afford to come and support the well on days like saturday (or had other regular commitments etc) - but that can't possibly be the only reason. The challenge for the club is to encourage those who can afford it to NOT watch it on the telly but be at the stadium. (whether that's through pricing or other incentive schemes) And on your final point - whilst I accept your criticism of their support. As a well fan of approaching 40 years we no longer have the moral high ground. in a lot of instances we're just as bad as them. We need to stop thinking that we're better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev IM Jolly Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Maybe I'm a wee bit longer in the tooth tho - but as guys like Special AKA and fatcalf will tell you - supporting 'well at Fir Park on an OF day in the 70s and 80s was an Olympic Sport. I don't know him personally but from his postings over the years, and with respect to him, I think Kmcalpin would have been going to FP since you were in nappies Steve, and probably before that! On the topic, I can't say as I'm surprised by the latest figures and I think a host of factors have contributed, but for me the main issue would be price coupled with live TV coverage. We used to attract a few thousand extra 'Well fans on Old Firm matchdays during the nineties - I knew a few personally - but the price for a one off game like that now, which is only a run of the mill SPL fixture after all, is a real put off, especially when more often than not these fixtures are on the TV. It's therefore an easy decision for the casual 'Well follower to decide not to go, even more so in the current financial climate. That said, even if the Cooper stand had been open for Ranger's fans, would they have brought any extra bodies in significant numbers? I think not, and that for me is the crux here. No point disgruntling the natives over the course of a number of seasons when we don't even have any real financial gain for the handful of games in a year. I would think the overall decline in attendances would be the bigger fish to fry and I'm glad that seems to be the agenda going by Leeann's post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 I don't know him personally but from his postings over the years, and with respect to him, I think Kmcalpin would have been going to FP since you were in nappies Steve, and probably before that! To be honest I kinda suspected that Obviously his memory's going then! We definitely improved the well turn out significantly over those years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daver Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Cooper normally has 799 season ticket holders - 651 came on the day. In addition to the 651 who came along a further 109 bought tickets East normally has 1,328 season ticket holders - 1,304 came on the day. In addition to the 1,304 who came along a further 411 bought tickets POD normally has 386 season ticket holders - 360 came on the day. In addition to the 360 who came along a further 182 bought tickets. If you took an average of the above then approx 8% or thereabouts of season ticket holders did not attend on the day, the vast majority of which sit in the Cooper. As Leeann points out there were a lot of Cooper season ticket holders who did not attend while attendance of season ticket holders in the other two stands was strong. It has to be remembered that the Cooper Stand contains the Family Section and I'm pretty sure the majority of non-attendees would have been kids as parents left them at home. Let's face it, matches against Rangers or Celtic are not what everyone would consider to be a family occasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 See to be 100% honest - i don't find OF games that much worse than any others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postiejim Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Outwith reducing the price of the match what could realistically be done about any of the other issues. The game being all ticket is to comply with the authorities so that cant be changed .Those same authorities [the police] wont do anything about intimidation .And the game being an early Saturday morning kick off is because like most other clubs we need the cash so we play when were told to play. Lowering the price might put a few more bums on seats but with so many other issues unresolved it wont be many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazzie Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 East normally has 1,328 season ticket holders - 1,304 came on the day. In addition to the 1,304 who came along a further 411 bought tickets The East Stand holds 3128, or which Leann states 1328 are season ticket holders. This leaves exactly 1800 seats to be filled by paying punters. Only 411 paid the £20 to get in so, in theory, if Motherwell charged £10, they would make the same money in gate receipts if 822 folk turned up. Would you get the extra? I think you would. Obviously that theory is far too simplistic without taking into account concessions, extra policing and suchlike, but any losses on that front would be made up by programmes, kiosk, club shop, etc. In my opinion, any game live on TV, and any friendly, should be priced at £10 as a matter of course for the East Stand, avoiding the loophole of having to charge South Stand and Cooper Stand fans the same. I also think that 'Well fans could stomach Old Firm fans having the Cooper if they're charged twice as much as us to be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 i think i'd be up for that but you'd have to put up with a lot of moaning from old firm fans (including the ones in the media) and the more miserable 'well fans due to their season tickets being devalued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazzie Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 It would need to be something that was introduced at the start of a new campaign to let folk make up their own mind about buying a season ticket, but I also think that the season ticket should carry extra benefits other than free function hall hire because, over the past few years, it's turned into a bit of a numbers game when folk have been deciding whether or not to buy one. Free function hire, prize draws for hospitality once a month, promos at the 'Well Shop, etc etc should be introduced for season ticket holders so that when the chips are down and the club needs to try and get floating voters through the gate by lowering ticket prices, nobody will moan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 No comment about my age - I was born in the year that Hastie Weir joined the club for the first time. Seriously a lot of good points made and for me the reasons for poor attendances are many and varied. Hopefully the club will carry through Leeann's idea of an open forum for fans to look at ways of increasing our support. Over the years there's been a lot of good ideas on these fora - some may work, some may not but they're worth considering. For me its the single biggest issue facing our club and one we can't afford to ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 It will be interesting to see how many turn up for the Inverness game. Despite the drastic cut in price, I imagine you'll be lucky to get much more than 4,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEMO Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 1. 12:15 kickoff 2. Live on TV. 3. Extorionate ticket prices. 4. Indimidation of Old Firm fans taking over the town for the day. 5. Bigotted bile. Five perfectly good reasons why 'Well fans would've given it a miss on saturday. Given that the Cooper is traditionally the family section where parents will take their kids, these games are exactly the type of games these people are likely to miss, and understandably so. Support the team??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megastar Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 Most guys get a hard time from the Mrs when the cash is tight and we want to go to the game. How about a Mr & Mrs ticket that gets you both a day oot for say £25. Treat the Mrs and get to the game even a wee drink before or after would really get her in the mood. I know that some guys see it as a release but there are some that are well under the thumb! That's no me by the way - is that right hen? Comin tae dae the dishes now pet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilian Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 It has to be remembered that the Cooper Stand contains the Family Section and I'm pretty sure the majority of non-attendees would have been kids as parents left them at home. Let's face it, matches against Rangers or Celtic are not what everyone would consider to be a family occasion. I'd wager that it is a majority of family tickets that go unused for an early kick off game against either of the Old Firm, for the reason you mention and the fact that many kids that are fitba' daft are playing fitba' on a Saturday morning when some numptie decided it would be a good time for an SPL game to be played and to show it live across the region one of the very few unused season tickets for the East stand was a childs ticket and it was unused for both those reasons, he plays football and there is no way I'm introducing him to 'Well v ger/tic games, he's going back with enough choice phrases from all the other games without me getting hung for what he'd hear/repeat from them See to be 100% honest - i don't find OF games that much worse than any others. my opinion is heading this way, but the potential powderkeg is still there especially with the lack of control over which knuckledraggers get tickets and the fact they don't like dropping points something they are both gonna have to get used to when playing Gannons young guns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_P Posted September 17, 2009 Report Share Posted September 17, 2009 It will be interesting to see how many turn up for the Inverness game. Despite the drastic cut in price, I imagine you'll be lucky to get much more than 4,000. League Cup attendances are generally down on league games for almost all teams drawn at home but I think we tend not to drop just as much as others because we have the first cup game ticket where applicable and allied to that where the other team has been agreeable John Boyle has tried to reduce the prices at about every League Cup game I can remember. 2818 for the 2-2 league game at the end of last season incidently Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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