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You’re confusing having a strong opinion with presenting it as fact. I’ve explained why I’ve reached my conclusions about Alfred, and I stand by them. The points tally is a fact, but it doesn’t tell the whole story. My argument is about the performances, the lack of identity and the apparent regression. You can argue that eight games is too small a sample, but that doesn’t make those concerns any less legitimate. I’m not claiming to know with certainty how this ends, but I don’t need to wait until the season’s over to say what I think I’m seeing.

You're completely missing the point. Of course football analysis is subjective. The issue is whether opinion is being presented as certainty. JBA having no league wins in his first five games is a fact. Eight points after eight games is a fact. AJ also having eight points after eight is a fact. Playing 11 competitive games in 37 days is a fact. Saying AJ is "incapable", "too stubborn", "out of his depth" and that the outcome is becoming "inevitable" isn't fact. That's your interpretation. Same with saying JBA had a clear identity "from day one". That's much easier to say now because we know how his season developed. Go back and look. The usual suspects certainly were not saying that at the time. My point was never that my interpretation is objective fact. It's that you're drawing conclusions from a very small sample and presenting them as though they're obvious. They're not. At all.

Accusing me of presenting hindsight as objective analysis is ironic when your entire response is largely subjective analysis presented as objective fact.

I’m absolutely amazed at people defending Vogt I tell my boys sometime you’ll play shit but effort is non negotiable people defending him should watch the game back & see how many times he let people run off him I’ve previously said maswanise needs dropped, totally changed my opinion on the basis we’ve got nothing better attacking wise we’ve had an absolute shocker over the summer

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Ive only seen the pic on FB but theres no context with that...who would be a polis these days ? Can't do right for doing wrong and every move gets filmed just in case...ive probably gone off topic but its taken heat off Alf a bit.

I think there's a ton of hindsight being presented as objective analysis in this post. The first problem is this idea that under JBA there was a "clear identity from day one", whereas under Johansson we're apparently seeing "absolutely none". Unless my memory isn't what it used to be, Askou's first competitive game was a 2-2 draw with Clyde. We then needed a stoppage-time winner to beat Peterhead at Fir Park. His first FIVE league games were all draws, and we didn't win a league match until the sixth attempt against Aberdeen. After eight league games, Askou had eight points. Johansson currently has eight points after eight league games. Nobody remembers Askou's start that way now because we know what happened afterwards. And during those results and performances, the usual characters were moaning like fuck early doors. I remember talk about us being "basically all fur coat and no knickers, and we’ve so far been unable to show that we can win games" and even the now incredible patter of "It’s still early(ish) days but so far JBA hasn’t shown any evidence of good game management so far." That's why the points comparison matters. It isn't being used to say Johansson will therefore be as successful as Askou. It's illustrating how ridiculously early it is to declare that one manager was clearly building something while another is obviously heading nowhere. And saying there have been "absolutely no signs" of anything under Johansson is just simply isn't true. We've already won away at Hibs, gone through HB 5-0 on aggregate in Europe, eliminated HJK 3-1, produced an excellent 2-0 home performance against them, beaten Dundee United 3-0 and competed very well with a good Freiburg side until a red card and penalty changed that game. We were also unbeaten through our first four league matches. There's absolutely an argument that things have regressed since then. That's completely fair. What you can't reasonably argue is that there has never been any evidence of a functioning team or any indication of what Johansson is trying to build. We've literally already seen it. The other claim I don't understand is that we've become "increasingly clueless the longer Alfred's had the players on the training pitch". At one stage we had played 11 competitive games in 37 days, including European travel. That's recovery sessions, preparation sessions, matches, flights, injuries, rotation and trying to integrate new players. It isn't six uninterrupted weeks at Dalziel Park drilling tactical patterns. Calendar time and coaching time aren't even close to being the same thing. Throw in the ridiculous international break that we just had and you compound the problem even further. We had key players on international duty, and other players were away visiting family and on holiday. That matters when you're asking a manager to change how a team plays. People talk about "identity" as though a manager installs a formation on a tactics board and suddenly eleven players simply just understand it. A possession structure, pressing system or set of attacking rotations involves spacing, body orientation, triggers, passing angles, rest defence, movement off the ball and players reacting automatically to what ten teammates and eleven opponents are doing. Those behaviours take repetition. And sometimes a team actually looks WORSE for periods while learning them because players are consciously thinking about movements that eventually need to become automatic. That obviously can't be used as an excuse indefinitely. If we're still seeing the same structural failures months down the line, then absolutely question the coaching. But eight league games or so is a stupidly small sample from which to conclude that a manager is "incapable" or "too stubborn". If something isn't working, it doesn't follow that the manager either cannot see it or stubbornly refuses to change it. He might believe changing it creates a bigger weakness elsewhere. He might think the execution is wrong rather than the structure. He might be trying to establish rehearsed patterns rather than changing the system every time it produces a poor performance. He might have limitations in the squad. Or, he might simply be wrong. All of those possibilities are there and exist. That's the complexity of management that most of the time gets completely ignored when analysis becomes "I can see this isn't working, therefore the manager can't". as I said in the Celtic thread, identifying a symptom isn't the same as diagnosing its cause. If Hodge is being overrun, is Hodge the problem? Or is the press in front of him being bypassed? Is the defensive line too deep? Is the full-back pinned? Has the opposition created an overload? Are the distances between units wrong? Change Hodge, and you might solve absolutely nothing. Or it might solve everything. That's not saying fans can't criticise. We absolutely can. But there is a huge difference between observing that something isn't working and knowing why it isn't working. There's a reason why we're not in the job, and he is. As I've mentioned elsewhere too, the Rosenborg criticism of Johansson is relevant here to a point. One of the genuine questions I had about him when I saw we'd hired him was about his adaptability. I'm not a fan of Norwegian football by any stretch, but from what I could see, his first Rosenborg team improved enormously, finished fourth after they'd been ninth the previous year and ended 2024 with 10 wins in their last 13 league games. The concern is that when that team later stopped functioning, he struggled to construct the next version of it. That's a legit criticism and something I'd watch closely at Motherwell. But that's very different from deciding after eight league games that he's "out of his depth". And then we get to the strangest part of the post: "A defeat to Killie... will only accelerate what is increasingly starting to feel inevitable." Inevitable? After eight league games? That's not analysis. That's you deciding where the story ends and then interpreting everything that happens through that conclusion. If we'd applied that standard to Askou after eight games, we'd have been looking at a manager with exactly eight league points, one league victory and consecutive defeats to Celtic and Falkirk and asking where this supposed progress was leading us. Fortunately we didn't know the ending at the time. In fact, after skimming the matchday threads from that early period I'm sure that absolutely not one of us would have guessed how it would end in reality. We do now, which makes his early period look much more obviously progressive when looking back than it probably felt while we were actually living through it. AJ might fail. He might prove unable to adapt. The current four-game losing run is concerning, and performances need to improve. No one is debating that. But there is a massive difference between saying that and constructing a narrative where Askou arrived with a fully functioning identity from day one, Alfred has shown absolutely nothing, more training has somehow made us progressively worse, he appears incapable of recognising obvious problems, and his departure is already becoming "inevitable". That's interpretation presented as fact. And less than ten league games into a fairly sizeable change in playing philosophy where AJ is following one of the best managers we've had in decades, I'd rather judge whether the problems are still there after he's actually had a meaningful amount of time to coach them than pretend we already know how the story ends.

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Keep the heid , theres no much innit.

AJ has had to totally rebuild the team over the summer, losing players of the quality of Just, Watt and Slattery, with all their goals from midfield, Welsh and McGinn( long term injury) from defence. Add to that Maswhanise having a once in a career (Bair / Higdon )season and the ongoing 1st pick. Players like JK and priestman still out wiith long term injury no wonder we are struggling. It will take time to get a settled team, and all the 1st pick players back available, so why dont we cut AJ some slack. We are no worse off than last season at this stage in this league 3 or 4 wins and its suddenly top 6 etc as we saw last year. Judging and condeming the manager after a 4 game poor run is nonsense, coyw.

I agree with posters on here that AJ has not picked what most of us know are the strongest players in the correct positions with some crazy thoughts of the Volt on Sunday, but equally we don’t see training sessions, I think if he was to put out the strongest team against all oppositions and get the press and energy right, then the occasions when we go long are a change to the sideways passes and I felt that with Seb’s pace on Sunday could have posed the tic CH’s problems, but I also want these all too often back passes and allowing teams to re group stopping, we need to work as a team which is sorely lacking, we need to be much much harder to play against, that mentality of playing forward and defending in packs has gone, AJ surely knows what needs to be done, I sincerely hope he takes it and soon!

Aye he was great for us, nothing we could do keep him though as he was well out of our reach financially, we gave him a platform and he took his chance well, i hope he does well and gets a chance to play in the EPL with Swansea.

I agree 100% that fans can criticise a manager without claiming they know better than him. Sunday was poor, and there were obvious things that didn't work. Where I'd maybe look at things differently, though, is assuming that because the problem looked obvious, the solution was obvious too. Take intensity, which I've heard a lot of people talking about. That isn't just about players running harder. The truth is, a press only works if the first player goes at the right moment, the next player blocks the correct passing lane, the midfield squeezes up, and the defensive line follows. One player being half a second late can make the whole thing look passive, which happens a lot at our level of the game. Same goes with movement and rotations. They may have worked on specific patterns all week, but if Celtic changed their press, blocked the first pass or forced players to receive facing their own goal, those rotations can disappear in a hurry. That doesn't mean the initial plan was good, by the way, but "I didn't see it" doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't drilled during training sessions and worked on. The midfield is similar. For example, if Hodge looks exposed, the problem might be Hodge. But it might also be the forwards not stopping Celtic playing through the first line, the defence dropping too deep, a full-back being pinned, or Celtic creating an overload elsewhere or something like that. What looks like an individual problem can actually be structural. That's why I'm not really keen on saying stuff like "the midfield was being overrun, so change the midfield" as though that automatically fixes the issue. The same applies to substitutions. Taking Vogt off at half-time might have helped, but AJ also has to consider whether the problem is actually Vogt or the structure around him, what the player replacing him changes tactically, what substitutions he may need later, and even the effect of publicly hooking a player after 45 minutes when he's trying to rebuild his confidence. Making a move like that also tells the wider squad a lot about you and the trust you have in them. None of that means AJ got it right on the day. Managers make bad selections and bad tactical decisions all the time. There's a reason the ones who make less mistakes and bad decisions get paid an absolute fortune. But there's a big difference between identifying a symptom and correctly diagnosing the cause, I think. I'm far from an expert, but for me that's really what professional coaching is. Working out why something isn't functioning, deciding which part of an interconnected system to change, and anticipating what the opposition will do in response. I'm also not particularly bothered by him saying afterwards that he thought the starting lineup was correct. Managers aren't giving us a full internal debrief in press conferences. He's still managing the dressing room and isn't likely to come out and effectively say certain players shouldn't have been selected. You start doing that and things can turn really quickly. If anything, he should have given the interviews he did, then went back to the dressing room and made it clear internally that some players need to live up to the faith and responsibility he's showing in them. But that needs to be done behind closed doors, not through the BBC or on YouTube. Where I will start to be more critical is if the same problems keep happening. If we're sitting here in December and the midfield is repeatedly overrun in the same way, the press repeatedly lacks coordination, the rotations continually fail, or players are consistently used in roles that don't suit them, then it becomes a coaching issue rather than one bad afternoon. And that's the bit I'm personally interested in watching closely with Johansson, because adaptability was one of the legitimate criticisms of how things eventually unravelled at Rosenborg. So, fans can absolutely question Sunday's decisions. I just don't think "we could all see what was wrong" automatically means the corrective decision was as straightforward as it looked from the stand. Seeing the symptom is often easy. Correctly identifying the cause is the hard part.

I am probably over analysing as per usual but here's another take on things. AJ was 2 1/2 years in Rosenborg seat so this isn't his first job so hopefully has gained experience to fix this bad run of form. Also i am curious as to the conversations with Rogers and other coaching staff, you would hope they are singing from same songsheet though admittedly totally out of tune at moment. IF.......dons had won say 2-0 and yesterday Said or JT had started instead of Willy would there have been same anger? I am not so sure. It was painful watching Vogt yesterday but he has obviously been working hard on training ground to prove he deserved a chance....it didnt work and AJ should have subbed him at half time. Instead it just created more tension in the stands. I am only concerned about us but there are other teams in bad run..check highlights of hearts v st mirren to see how brutal buddies were. If we can get Oscar, JK, Captain Paul and I am not a fan but I think we missed RCC yesterday on left hand side, then the squad is stronger. Buck stops with AJ but the players also need to step up and we need the experienced ones rallying them. Yes its a mini crisis at moment but beat killie and it lifts us 6pts clear of them. We need the away support to get right behind the team. Yesterday was very flat though nothing on pitch to get us excited. COYW

To be fair, there was a very good post highlighting the sign on block E facebook page, which pointed to scottish womens aid charity and helpline i.e. more focussed on help for any victims. In the moment, the sign didn't necessarily come across like that, I would agree.

He seems to spend a lot of time angrily shouting from the dugout, as plenty of managers do. But as I’ve said before, respect is earned, not demanded.

Next 5 games are absolutely massive for him don’t expect us to take anything from hearts but the rest are absolutely winnable like others have said we need to start seeing some style of football whatever that is & a clear plan for me I’m not comparing him to last year ( it’s an impossible task & was never going to be the same ) I’m judging him based on what I’m watching, time will tell

We're all hoping you didn't answer tour own question there 😉

I’m prepared to give the manager time but he really needs to start showing that he knows what he’s doing. However, from what I’ve seen and heard from him so far, it seems to me that his football knowledge has been gleaned from textbooks and coaching manuals. He looks well short on man-management ability and based on our recent performances, I fear the players are starting to doubt him.

Yup....I think thats what we are all trying to work out

The 0-4 gubbing at home against Aberdeen has knocked the stuffing and the confidence right out of us and Alfred looks completely clueless as to how to rectify it. He’s not helped himself with his team selections particularly yesterday. Also, I reckon if we hadn’t postponed that Aberdeen game in favour of this particular game and played it on the Sunday of the weekend it was scheduled for we would probably have beaten them then, or at the very least not got gubbed 4-0.

What's went wrong since? Alfred has had 6.5 more weeks on the training pitch with the squad.

Folk maybe thinking why I am mentioning this but it was only 6 1/2 weeks ago. 6 of the starting line-up started yesterday and we gave the bundesliga leaders a right game of it for 60 mins. Paulsen JGR. JKL. WILSON. LONGELO LOWRY. HODGE. FADINGER MASWANHISE SEB P-H. SAID what i am trying to say is we were playing good football then and we were all happy with the transition. Now I don't know what has went wrong since. Hopefully no internal issues and just needing one good result to get us back on track. Ever the optimist.........COYW

Stephen Welsh. Just checked out the Swansea City fans forum. would say Welsh is the best CB we have had in a very very long time. He has ages on the ball and his passes can almost unlock a team 2/3 times a game. Felt chuffed he was 'made ' in Motherwell . Needed a lift after yesterday.