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Thanks for that insight David. I suppose thats what sports science is all about. So, what we're saying is that whilst a manager takes the actual decisions on team selection and and substitutions, the opinions he is presented with by other staff can, in some circumstances (like a squad limited by injuries), pretty well dictate what team he actually puts on the park. For example, "Player A has a minor strain and we recommend he plays no more than 20 minutes". So, whilst ordinary fans like me naively assume that the manager has free rein to pick the team the reality might be totally different.

Said on FB after the Falkirk game there seems to be a little 'emperor's new clothes' feel for me, we're nowhere near as dynamic (Hibs winner aside) as last season. and we're playing without a striker effectively, IF we're are good as we're supposed to be Stenny should have been a formality. Glass coffin situation up by.

The perspective is that one or two are clearly not good enough for the top division despite having been given the recognised route and support to build their career. Not based solely on Sunday but also based on the past two seasons. They have not developed as we all had hoped. Sadly that happens all too often within every club. But for a number of reasons they are what we have at the moment and that's not their fault. More generally, at what age and after how many games does a player stop being regarded as a youngster? When should we reasonably expect to see progress? I think it was you who highlighted that Wilson has played over 100 senior games. Many of those games surrounded by senior players within an established line up. Add some Under 21 International appearances in 2024. Numerous coaches They are all doing their best and that effort is appreciated. For their own good I believe it would be better if they moved elsewhere.....loan meantime or straight transfer. It was painful seeing how much they struggled on Sunday. To be clear, I am not blaming any of those youngsters for the loss on Sunday. I don't think any senior Motherwell player came off that park thinking they had done themselves justice. I am just saying there comes a time to identify when a player is not up to the standard we require. That does not mean a player....youngster or otherwise.... does not have a future elsewhere

Think you’re pretty much bang on the money ( although ur not allowed to say vogts not good enough at this stage 😂) for me a spl teams squad should be good enough to beat stenhousemuir ( I know the injuries but the reality is even with the injured players back the attacking options aren’t good enough & im not convinced who but priestman would have affected it ) managers clearly not chucked the cup, he’s just not got the squad needed & the reality is despite the good start we’re liable to be out of Europe ( just where we are & it’s been a great journey so here’s hoping ) & we’re out a cup we shouldn’t be yet cups for me are massively important to us, we’ve great entertainment but we should really be doing better in these matches hopefully get some players in soon that can make a difference for the record think the manager will be a good appt

Mybe a paper exercise, but our submitted list for Thursday's game is a little more optimistic as it includes Sods, Williams, Thor and Ap Stam. Priestman and Sparrow also on it as well Hodge. How fit some of these players are is another matter entirely of course. Still its a step in the right direction.

Lot of people stating that our fringe players are not good enough for first team squad. I disagree. When a bunch are flung into the foray, then sure, it’s a team lacking quality but when you sub on on one or two playing alongside our starters then they are fine

DennyMC - not only have you one of the coolest avatars wit big Sieb but this post is absolutely top notch and summarises brilliantly where the young players are together with what many of us are thinking about Vogyt. For me it covers exactly where we're at. Great post .

There were, what? Eight changes to the team? When you change that many players at once, you're changing partnerships, movement, communication and most of the structure around them. A young/fringe player coming into a settled Motherwell side alongside nine or ten regulars is a very different proposition from several of them being thrown together at the same time. They can still be criticised for playing poorly, of course. That's football. But I think some perspective is maybe needed there.

You had me convinced 🤣🤣

There will be someone with some statistics but I think 60% of goals of FP come at that end. There you go, I've hung my hat on this made up stat.

The issue is not with rotation but with the quality of player AJ has in reserve. That's not his fault and he is not going to hide behind that excuse. It takes a lot longer than a few weeks to build the quality of squad depth we require if we are to continue to mix it with the big boys. A run of injuries is another hurdle to overcome. And less easy to predict. On Sunday we were dependent upon Wilson and Ross who did not progress when loaned to lower league clubs and struggled to secure a starting position at Raith or Annan respectively. And they have shown next to nothing since returning to Fir Park. Harsh for some, but realistic. For some reason, misguided loyalty or financial reasons perhaps, their contracts were extended. That error came home to roost yesterday. They were out of their depth......against Stenhousemuir. It affected the whole team. Sadly, the whole experience may well have damaged them. Booth and Mcallister are at a different stage of their careers and may develop given the patience and Loan experience afforded to the two mentioned above. Time enough for them yet. Connolly did just fine and is a decent back up. Although at an early stage, Whyte has clearly benefited and matured from his time at Stenhousemuir. His appearances this season reflect that progress. Whether he turns out to be the next Turnbull or Miller time will tell but early signs are promising. Contrasting his progress with that of Wilson and Ross is very telling. Same path. Different outcome. Different quality. I really don't know what to make of Vogt. Given the other excellent signings our recruitment team have uncovered I cannot believe how little he has contributed so far. Flashes at best. At times he looks lost. At other times terrified. Hopefully we see soon the abilities that encouraged us to sign him. Gutted at losing to Stenhousemuir but not that surprised. The match played out as I feared believing that considerable rotation would be a huge factor. Not sure what other options AJ had. I really don't think he chose one cup over the other but rather decided to protect as many players as he could. Had he given up on the League Cup as many suggest, why then risk the players he did second half? When we qualify for Europe next season we will be in a much stronger position to compete on all fronts. With greater depth and hopefully less injuries. It is actually amazing how well we have started this season.

The voice of sanity: the manager's had an amazingly difficult time dealing with a new country and language (though his English is better than some of the pundits on Sportsound), a wife and new baby living here too,, a squad in turmoil during the window, a raft of injuries and obvious difficulties in recruitment, particularly up front. He's already explained the quick sequence of fixtures has meant he's had very little coaching time and to work on tactics and, after one of our best nights in Europe, people turn on him after he warned us about our difficulties in beating lowly opposition in the LC last season and that we can't always play to our best because of all the availability problems. That plastic pitch would hamper any team which depends on accurate passing and all teams playing on that surface know this. Whatever happens on Thursday, I'm sure AJ will play the best team he can to carry out his chosen game-plan. We need to get behind the team and make FP start rocking again.

Is it also possible that AJ is playing the politics with the Board, to try and leverage some additional players for the squad? European managers are often adept at this, highlighting the lack of depth to the Board and trying to force their hand. It may not be that case but we certainly need some reinforcements.

Because in this day and age when all the information is discussed about sports science, load balancing, rest, recovery, nutrition, training etc. people still seem shocked when medical advice is to leave a player out the team. The days training in the morning then down to the pub (via the bookies) for a couple of pints, a fag and a game of snooker have long gone.

Away team tactics when they win the toss, surely. Rarely happens, but one or two Premiership teams did the same thing against us last season.

Wonder if an AJ tactic or just coincidence but I don't like us attacking away end 2nd half. Maybe selfish as I sit nearer home end but I wonder why we have started doing that

Why’s it’s surprising?? fans pay a lot of money & so far Vogt for example for me has shown absolutely nothing to suggest he’s a good addition ( be more than happy if that changes & certainly don’t voice it at games but it’s an opinion ) Not allowed to question signings….not allowed to question young players….not allowed to question the manager 😂 Players will have shite games but to hide in games against stenhousemuir for example shows the characters not there for me other than priest man I don’t see who’s changing that game yesterday

I think for this game if we can field as many of our first choice players as possible (I’m sure AJ will) with selected youngsters like Whyte available off the bench and try and put up a great show at Fir Park against admittedly a vastly superior opposition in all positions then with a 10,000 crowd behind the team we always have the chance of a result. At the end of the day even the best sides on paper loose to supposed minnows, (Stenny game a prime example) I’d take a draw but I’m hopeful of a victory to take to Germany with a new striker (Best things come to those who wait…) to get a run out next week.

If we weren't required to have 3 keepers in the squad I'd be half expecting Connelly to make an appearance at centre-mid.

I still find it incredible that we have fans that judge new players on 1 or 2 first team appearances after just moving to a new country and having 4 hours of training. So not understanding everything David pointed out is not quite as surprising to me.

Not a bad shout. Darren Randolph is available as keeper too, I think. Brian Kerr might be a decent option.

This 100 times over. But you know, he is Scandinavian, so clearly just disrespected Stenny & The League Cup..... 🤔🤔🤔

"He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!"

Its incredible that people dont understand this. Id guarantee, that if we didnt have so many injuries, didnt have two games in a week at the start of the season and didn't have so many new guys at the Club, then AJs team would have looked drastically different to the one he put out yesterday. He didn't sideline Longelo for Wilson, or Johnny K for Ross, just for the sake of it