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2019-20 Rebuild

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I also think Burrows and the Board will have a figure in mind and no doubt that figure will be revised upwards when Turnbull continues to perform and develop as he has.

With that in mind, and taking into account monies to be received from Hastie and McKinstrey moving on, I hope there is currently no pressure to sell and those in charge have the determination and strength to resist any attempt in the summer to buy him on the cheap. Perhaps from a media loved club like Celtic who will have players to offload (Hendry, Ralston as examples) and who are most reluctant to include "add ons" when dealing with Scottish clubs. Turnbull has signed on for another two years so we must remember we are currently in a position of strength. However,  if a Club does come in with a fantastic offer that includes the potential for a future windfall then of course we have to be realistic.

  I understand the attraction of once and for all clearing our obligations to previous owners. But as we appear to be managing that issue well and reducing the debt at an acceptable rate, I don't believe the existence of that debt should encourage us to sell ourselves short with regards to Turnbull, particularly as that would also result in limited funds being available for reinvestment on the playing side. 

And since we like to play the game of comparisons with earlier Scottish transfer deals....

Andrew Robertson.  Age 20.  Defender. 70 League appearances combined for Queens Park(34) and Dundee Utd(36). 5 goals in total. Well regarded and first full cap a few months before his transfer to Hull City. Nowhere near the profile or hype of David Turnbull.  Fee £2.75m plus lucrative sell on clause.

I genuinely believe that if we are brave and stick to our guns, in 8 months to a year from now there is no reason we cannot at least match the deal secured by Utd. We must not miss this rare opportunity. I would rather hold on for now and resist the temptation to "Cash Out".

 

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11 minutes ago, dennyc said:

I also think Burrows and the Board will have a figure in mind and no doubt that figure will be revised upwards when Turnbull continues to perform and develop as he has.

With that in mind, and taking into account monies to be received from Hastie and McKinstrey moving on, I hope there is currently no pressure to sell and those in charge have the determination and strength to resist any attempt in the summer to buy him on the cheap. Perhaps from a media loved club like Celtic who will have players to offload (Hendry, Ralston as examples) and who are most reluctant to include "add ons" when dealing with Scottish clubs. Turnbull has signed on for another two years so we must remember we are currently in a position of strength. However,  if a Club does come in with a fantastic offer that includes the potential for a future windfall then of course we have to be realistic.

  I understand the attraction of once and for all clearing our obligations to previous owners. But as we appear to be managing that issue well and reducing the debt at an acceptable rate, I don't believe the existence of that debt should encourage us to sell ourselves short with regards to Turnbull, particularly as that would also result in limited funds being available for reinvestment on the playing side. 

And since we like to play the game of comparisons with earlier Scottish transfer deals....

Andrew Robertson.  Age 20.  Defender. 70 League appearances combined for Queens Park(34) and Dundee Utd(36). 5 goals in total. Well regarded and first full cap a few months before his transfer to Hull City. Nowhere near the profile or hype of David Turnbull.  Fee £2.75m plus lucrative sell on clause.

I genuinely believe that if we are brave and stick to our guns, in 8 months to a year from now there is no reason we cannot at least match the deal secured by Utd. We must not miss this rare opportunity. I would rather hold on for now and resist the temptation to "Cash Out".

 

I did notice Burrows on twitter I think it was Saturday night having some debate with a guy who I think was a Celtic fan saying Turnbull will be playing in the EPL in the future and will definitely command a record fee, if hibs can get 3 million for John McGinn then that's the starting point for Turnbull who I believe is a better player as well.

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8 minutes ago, scoojy said:

Perhaps Turnbull just has the confidence, as Faddy did, that he will get his move no matter how long his contract has to run therefore getting the club the biggest fee possible.

Maybe. I also think that age and development comes into play. 

I see a lot of people comparing Hastie's situation with that of Turnbull, but with Hastie we're talking about a player who made his first team debut for us almost three years ago, and when he was 18 years of age he also put pen to paper on a two and a half year deal with the club, just like Turnbull has.

Since that point he's spent a season on loan at Airdrie, and then half a season at Alloa. Both stints were pretty unremarkable as far as I'm aware, and while he was certainly earmarked to come into contention for a place in our squad at some point I don't think he was ever considered a real hot prospect.

He then bounced into our team and hit a hot streak of form just before his current deal expired. If we're honest, the form he's shown over his entire career thus far would suggest that it was maybe a case of "right place, right time" of late, and that he'd maybe have went on to be decent enough, but maybe not quite to the level where he'd still be attracting the kind of clubs and offers he received recently.

What do you do in that situation? Gamble that you're going to maintain a level of form that you've not shown in the previous season and a half at a much lower level? Or do you cash in while the iron is hot and take that four year deal on great money?

Personally, I think Rangers are mad to offer a kid like Hastie that kind of contract based on what he's done thus far, but it was a no-brainer for the lad to take it. I don't think the same level of money or interested club would have been knocking on his door in January or next summer if his form had plateaued to the extent where he was a good player in our squad but nothing more.

I also don't think we would have been in a position to look for more than we're getting in development fees for him either, so it's a win/win all-round in my view.

Turnbull is in a completely different situation and at a different stage in his development.

 

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39 minutes ago, David said:

It doesn't matter how explosive he was

Erm no yourself, sorry for not continually quoting as you do, I assumed you'd be able to see that it was this statement I was questioning.

We'll agree to disagree shall we? Hastie and Turnbull's seasons have been very different and consequently have resulted in different paths as to their careers and futures. However if their impacts to the team were reversed then I think we could be seeing a very different outcome.

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2 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

Erm no yourself, sorry for not continually quoting as you do, I assumed you'd be able to see that it was this statement I was questioning.

My apologies, I had assumed we were still discussing the topic that we'd been covering for the previous four posts, which was Turnbull "looking to Hastie who had a run of half a dozen good games and is probably on more money already" as you put it.

Hastie being explosive or not had no bearing on the fact that both players had the same options in front of them until recently. They could have both tabled the offer from us and waited to see what else was on offer.

Hastie went down that path, Turnbull didn't. Which is why I disagreed when you mentioned Turnbull "looking to Hastie who had a run of half a dozen good games and is probably on more money already."

If Turnbull was concerned with the money at this stage in his development he'd have held on and waited to see what happened the rest of the season. If we get to the summer and the club receive a less than satisfactory offer that would see Turnbull earn ten times what he does now and he is unhappy about that, I'd be inclined to say "well, you signed a two and a half year deal a few months back David, so the club is perfectly entitled to demand a reasonable fee for you. If you wanted to have the option of accepting an offer of ten times your wages you should have hung fire on signing that new deal like your pal Jake did."

10 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

We'll agree to disagree shall we? Hastie and Turnbull's seasons have been very different and consequently have resulted in different paths as to their careers and futures. However if their impacts to the team were reversed then I think we could be seeing a very different outcome.

I disagree, for the reasons I mentioned above in my reply to Scoojy. Turnbull is younger and has played less first-team football (at any level) than Hastie has. He also knows most likely that he's far more talented, and as such can afford to gamble a bit more by sticking around for another season or so.

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53 minutes ago, dennyc said:

With that in mind, and taking into account monies to be received from Hastie and McKinstrey moving on, I hope there is currently no pressure to sell and those in charge have the determination and strength to resist any attempt in the summer to buy him on the cheap.

Don't forget too that Cedric Kipre's not inconsiderable fee falls into the current financial year.

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This new signing concerns me. He has been slaughtered, and see to be honest. If that number of people slaughter him. I believe it.

It was quoted what people said about Dunne but there was some positivity too.

These guys have watched the player for two years, I'm  pretty sure I would agree with the consensus of 95% of the fans opinions on here when a player goes.

So it's Aaron Taylor Sinclair mark two. Not ideal.

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12 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

This new signing concerns me. He has been slaughtered, and see to be honest. If that number of people slaughter him. I believe it.

It was quoted what people said about Dunne but there was some positivity too.

These guys have watched the player for two years, I'm  pretty sure I would agree with the consensus of 95% of the fans opinions on here when a player goes.

So it's Aaron Taylor Sinclair mark two. Not ideal.

Why not try being normal and well adjusted and make a judgement on a player after we have actually seen him play for a few months, instead of posting pish like that based on social media rubbish. :doh:

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11 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Why not try being normal and well adjusted and make a judgement on a player after we have actually seen him play for a few months, instead of posting pish like that based on social media rubbish. :doh:

It's not pish. We all read Taylor Sinclair was a dud, and he was (times many many occasions we have been forewarned about players)

Imagine spending your money on something,  let's say a car and everybody says it's crap but you buy it anyway because until Spiderpigs says so and given it a chance it can't be.

They have watched Tait and gave positive reviews on the same spin and we know what we get from him.

Furthermore this potentially denies Livingstone a game, and for me there is questions to be answered there too.

The likelihood is they are correct and we have wasted our monies. That's logic. If he turns it around good luck, and I will post something then.

50 odd people saying he's awful from Cambridge, Partick etc.

Why would we ignore this and not question this? it is a forum yeh?

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Aldred was a complete dud before he arrived as well, look how that one turned out? someone mentioned on pie and bovril (st johnstone fan) that Scott Tanser got a similar hounding out the door, the worst left back in port vale history yet he's been a revelation at st johnstone.

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9 minutes ago, Neilwell86 said:

Aldred was a complete dud before he arrived as well, look how that one turned out? someone mentioned on pie and bovril (st johnstone fan) that Scott Tanser got a similar hounding out the door, the worst left back in port vale history yet he's been a revelation at st johnstone.

I'll certainly give you Aldred who the Bury fans hated  but what I will say is that previous fans from other clubs (Blackpool specifically) were very favourable to him which gave some comfort. Can't comment on Tanser to be honest. I'm not saying it doesn't turnaround but usually it does not, and my confidence in our signing rises in the style of Gallagher where he is considered a decent player by the fans of his former club.

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While it's obvious not every signing can make an impact, I have more faith in our scouts and coaches finding players that will fit into our system than random fans who haven't a clue what we are looking for.

 

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Writing a guy off coz of what people on the internet are saying about him has to be the most Motherwell fan thing to do ever.

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9 minutes ago, GazzyB said:

Writing a guy off coz of what people on the internet are saying about him has to be the most Motherwell fan thing to do ever.

That, plus writing guys off after they played a few games for us (Porter, Higdon, Dunne, Gorrin etc etc.)

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I'll give him a chance and if he's a duffer i'll post it. There can be injuries he's carrying . Illness etc that's maybe had an impact on his perfomances we'll have to wait and see. Surely Robbo hasn't signed a 3rd pish left back.

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Mind Chris Porter had one leg longer than the other and, therefore, was pish!

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2 hours ago, scoojy said:

Mind Chris Porter had one leg longer than the other and, therefore, was pish!

Well he was certainly no Garrincha.

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He can’t be any worse than Anthony Straker

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7 hours ago, Del_Superwell said:

I did notice Burrows on twitter I think it was Saturday night having some debate with a guy who I think was a Celtic fan saying Turnbull will be playing in the EPL in the future and will definitely command a record fee, if hibs can get 3 million for John McGinn then that's the starting point for Turnbull who I believe is a better player as well.

Davie first and foremost is  a 'Well fan so he was always going to make sure that when he leaves the club it would be well recompensed hence why he signed his new deal when he could have easily done a "Hastie"

He also has enough faith in his own ability to know that he will continue improving to the stage that  he will have a choice of clubs to join when the time comes. 

A very mature level headed young man who will do whats best for him and Motherwell FC and hopefully go far in the game 

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14 hours ago, wunderwell said:

It's not pish. We all read Taylor Sinclair was a dud, and he was (times many many occasions we have been forewarned about players)

Imagine spending your money on something,  let's say a car and everybody says it's crap but you buy it anyway because until Spiderpigs says so and given it a chance it can't be.

They have watched Tait and gave positive reviews on the same spin and we know what we get from him.

Furthermore this potentially denies Livingstone a game, and for me there is questions to be answered there too.

The likelihood is they are correct and we have wasted our monies. That's logic. If he turns it around good luck, and I will post something then.

50 odd people saying he's awful from Cambridge, Partick etc.

Why would we ignore this and not question this? it is a forum yeh?

You are right it is a forum and no doubt there will be a discussion on how the new singings are doing etc after people have seen them play and formed an opinion on them. SR and the rest of the coaching staff have done just that and decided that Jake Carroll is what we are looking for, time will tell if that decision was a good one. But maybe they should have forgot about all the years of experience, getting UEFA, coaching badges etc and just logged on to various fan forums on their phones, " Las, I am thinking of signing Jake Carroll, naw boss, just read on twitter that angry from Cambridge and wunderwell thinks he is pish " ok then it must be true we won't bother.

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17 hours ago, wunderwell said:

50 odd people saying he's awful from Cambridge, Partick etc.

Why would we ignore this and not question this? it is a forum yeh?

Partick and Cambridge's combined average attendance comes to about 9,100.  50 odd people represent about 0.5% of them or roughly 1 in 200.  So 99.5% didn't comment on him or thought he is ok/good. Give the guy a chance and lets see what he can do. 

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I said it was concerning and I stand by that. I noticed not one comment on how a 28 year old journeyman footballer will potentially deny Livingstone a first team spot.  What’s the thoughts on this? Turnbull and Hastie faced delays getting into the team, despite them being better than what we had. 

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7 minutes ago, wunderwell said:

I noticed not one comment on how a 28 year old journeyman footballer will potentially deny Livingstone a first team spot.

I guess it depends on how good Livingstone is, doesn't it? If he's not better than said 28 year old journeyman then maybe he doesn't deserve a first team spot?

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If Livingstone is good enough to be in the team he will be in the team, I think that is fairly obvious given how Robinson has handled all of our youngsters, whether or not he is good enough is a whole different story. The position has been for Livingstone for about two years and he's not managed to make it his, I was very impressed with him for the u20's however it was there for all to see how off the pace he was, against Celtic in all fairness, A few games to round of the season could do him the world of good but he has to spend a lot of time in the gym bulking up over the summer if he wants to find his name on the team sheet come august. Jake Carroll coming in certainly is blocking his pathway

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