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Not quite the point I was making. Last season, when we went on a shocking winless run, it was argued by some that SK should be cut some slack given that he hadn't been in the job long and that he was being forced to pick players he didn't sign. Thats not the situation now.

The time to judge SK will be once he has had a run of games with HIS players in the starting 11. If we get to October and Heygi, Kaleta, Balmer, Gordon, Seddon, Callaghan, Sparrow, Stuparevic, Robinson, Stamatelopoulos etc are still all firing blanks and we are bottom of the table then there is a discussion to be had. Aye the League Cup group stage was shite to watch, but its rarely anything more than that and we have a winnable home tie against a team with bigger fish to fry. The real stuff starts Saturday.

Kettlewell said all the right things tonight about the goals for the season. We are aiming for Top 6 and Europe. He wanted to put the point across that he was taking accountability for the performance yesterday but it wasn't clear what that actually meant other than saying those words.

and everyone to say what battling spirit we have and how we'd have never done that under X(previous manager). Shows that players still believe in SK etc etc.

Just when you said there will be no excuses or hiding places, I take that to mean that if and when we hit that period, many would suggest the next step would be sacking the manager. I'm fairly certain we’ll hit an extended winless run this season at some point. The lack of depth when it comes to quality in our squad suggests that injuries will lead to a period where we don't perform well and results suffer. That is unless we're incredibly lucky and avoid many injuries this season, of course. In my opinion, Kettlewell has done a good job thus far. It's sometimes forgotten (or ignored by some) that he's a young manager still learning the job. Before coming to us, he’d had six months as a manager on his own. This upcoming season is only his second full season as a manager, and he’s only just turned 40 years old. Sure, he likes to talk, but I'd take that any day over one of the "boys" who get managerial jobs in this country and can't string two sentences together without resorting to clichés that say absolutely nothing. Sacking a manager should always be an absolute last resort. The upheaval it causes at the club is immense, from seeing fellow coaches leave and player routines being disturbed, to a new manager coming in with different ideas and different requirements regarding the playing staff. Interestingly enough, we sacked Graham Alexander two years ago today, and the chaos and upheaval we've experienced since then hasn't been good. We're only now really getting back to something resembling normalcy.

We've rarely led in games when the full team's been on the park so singling him out on that point is plain daft.

Not just because we didn’t beat Partick Thistle yesterday, but because in the eighteen months he’s been in charge we have done nothing but regress under his management and I have seen nothing in these group games so far to suggest there is any improvement on the horizon, the opposite if anything. His tactical set up and approach to games is all wrong and his transfer dealings have been dreadful, regardless of ‘limited budget’ and all that guff.

Well, its not been the greatest pre season, primarily because too many of our new signings for key positions are injured leaving us no choice to play those already in the building and some development players. Ive been impressed with Dylan Wells. I think he has something abd we could do worse to keep him around. I think Wilson is solid enough and wouls be fine in a back four but expect Seddon to start in front of him. Ferrie still isnt ready. He needs a season long loan as he wont be getting many minutes when fit. Given that SK seems hell bent on 3 at the back, I think our best starting 11, not counting longer term injuries could be....... Heygi/Ox McGinn Gordon Balmer Kaleta Seddon Miller Davor Robinson Stama Stuparevic

Afraid I'm a simpleton , I prefer not to have to work out nuances ...

I think he is more of an Ian St John style goal scorer.

Can he play as a number 10? If so, sign him up for Saturday!

You would have enjoyed it. A 90 year fan went to town on Kettlewell. We need to get the guy a log in on here, he was brilliant value.

I agree with all of that and would emphasise your last point. What could happen if we sack another manager mid-season? We might spend two or three transfer windows and a lot of money on getting rid of SK's signings and waiting for the new manager to mould his own team and style of play. Seem familiar?

It won't be a surprise to anybody that daft handshakes improve your chances of success in this country.

He's too limited on the ball for a team playing with three centre backs. He's basically a man down in possesion and which makes us easy to defend against and isn't enough of a physical presence when we are defending. If you look at that games he's started in the league we have very rarely led in games when he's on the park.

The difference is I’ve generally referred to a collective group of posters of a similar viewpoint as sanctimonious pricks, and not targeted anyone individually unless specifically provoked by them. Whereas, I am consistently and directly called a pant wetter etc by the same few posters for expressing a view they don’t like, which is fine, but it’s not overly constructive and is just annoying, so I call it out. But that’s a football forum. Most of us deal with it, give as good as we get, and move on to the next game. Now, since you’ve asked me specifically, if you want to talk about the difference, let’s not forget that it’s you who often gets personal by sending unsolicited direct messages to folk on this forum harassing them because you disagree, harbour a grudge, or have a personal grievance. I thought you would take my lack of response to your posts and direct messages to me as a hint to stop engaging directly with me, but here we are. However, I won’t tell you or anyone how to act or what to publicly post or direct message to others, but some self-policing (including by me at times) before reaching for the keyboard would be wise. You’re also free to ignore me and others.

First game of season is never a must win. That's so negative.

Far too early to be discussing SK's future but, and there's always a but, this season will be different. He's been in post for about a year and a half now and built his own team. If things go badly wrong in the coming months, there'll be no excuses or hiding place, harsh as it seems.

I noticed at Montrose that the ref played 90 minutes and not a second more. That's despite several substitutions. It was a finely balanced game at 1-1 and the outcome was important.

Wanting the manager sacked before the league has even started. We are so back!