International Players Thread

[grizzlyg]

2 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

Okay, I'll assume that you could have worded your opinion better as you mentioned only Miller as an example. I agree that not all of those with Scottish ancestry are necessarily fully committed to Scotland. However, being born outside of Scotland (like myself) doesn't automatically make someone not Scottish. I'll give you Richard Gough, Andy Goram, Stuart McCall and Kieran Tierney as examples of proud Scotsmen born outside the country.

Agree totally with that bud.  For me it's country of birth or one or both parents being Scottish.  It's the grandparent rule I don't agree with.  My grandfather was English and lovely man but no way did I feel affinity to play for them. Just my opinion but name me one player under grandparent rule who actually done a job for Scotland? James morrison and possibly Liam cooper

[grizzlyg]

2 hours ago, Mad Dog said:

Okay, I'll assume that you could have worded your opinion better as you mentioned only Miller as an example. I agree that not all of those with Scottish ancestry are necessarily fully committed to Scotland. However, being born outside of Scotland (like myself) doesn't automatically make someone not Scottish. I'll give you Richard Gough, Andy Goram, Stuart McCall and Kieran Tierney as examples of proud Scotsmen born outside the country.

With parent rule my only grievance is with Angus Gunn.  England u21, twice turned Scotland down yet spookily the week after Craig Gordon had double leg break he made himself available.  Clarke should have hunted him

[joewarkfanclub]

14 hours ago, dennyc said:

I agree those two were excellent in Athens. But two full games in four days was a step too far for both of them. They were done by half time and it showed second half. Clarke did nothing to help them

I dont disagree.

As I said, I would have played Tierney in a 3 and Max instead of Ralston. Just to get some pace back into the side and give Greece something different to think about. I probably wouldnt have dropped Ferguson and I might have been tempted to put Hirst up top with Adams to give him some support. All decisions Clarke could have made differently.

It just annoys me that when Scotland lose folk start scapegoating players like Hanley and Ralston who give everything to the cause, when there are others who were just as poor and make just as many mistakes.

PS. To turn this back to Motherwell players, Miller will undoubtedly get his chance in the June friendlies. There was just too much riding on this camp for it to happen unless the circumstances had panned out different.

[Kmcalpin]

21 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

PS. To turn this back to Motherwell players, Miller will undoubtedly get his chance in the June friendlies. There was just too much riding on this camp for it to happen unless the circumstances had panned out different.

I agree with most of what you usually say Joe, but not over this. That said, I would not have started Miller for the reasons you state ie. too much at stake. However at some point late on in the game, we could debate the precise time, when it was clear to all and sundry that we weren't going to win or even draw the tie. Miller should have been introduced and given his first cap. Just 5 or 10 minutes. His first chance to play for the full team, play at a Hampden international, get used to the international stage, whatever. The lad could have beee told something along the lines of "The ties lost, just go out and savour the occasion." However that opportunity was missed due to a safety first risk averse manager. 

Thats one of the reasons we haven't progressed at international level for decades and won't do so for years to come. Our youths are being mismanaged. 

[Stuwell2]

Although I’d like to have seen Miller get a cap I’m actually quite happy that he never, being on the bench listening to the fans booing the team was probably bad but for his memory of his first cap I’d rather he came on to a more mellow crowd than clapped and cheered him on 

[weeyin]

Clarke doesn't exactly have a stellar track record of giving new caps even in friendlies.

Meanwhile the U21s are getting gubbed 6 - 1 by Iceland as Gemmill continues his stellar youth coaching career.

[joewarkfanclub]

5 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I agree with most of what you usually say Joe, but not over this. That said, I would not have started Miller for the reasons you state ie. too much at stake. However at some point late on in the game, we could debate the precise time, when it was clear to all and sundry that we weren't going to win or even draw the tie. Miller should have been introduced and given his first cap. Just 5 or 10 minutes. His first chance to play for the full team, play at a Hampden international, get used to the international stage, whatever. The lad could have beee told something along the lines of "The ties lost, just go out and savour the occasion." However that opportunity was missed due to a safety first risk averse manager. 

Thats one of the reasons we haven't progressed at international level for decades and won't do so for years to come. Our youths are being mismanaged. 

I dont think it was the right circumstances.

Regardless of the fact that Clarke would have still been hoping for a miracle right to the death, putting him on in, what was by then, a totally unbalanced team getting the runaround wouldnt have been fair to the boy at all. What chance would he have to shine?

Play him from the start against Lichtenstein and/or Iceland alongside some experienced midfielders and give him the best chance to show what he can do.

Just my opinion mind.....

[Spiderpig]

27 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I dont think it was the right circumstances.

Regardless of the fact that Clarke would have still been hoping for a miracle right to the death, putting him on in, what was by then, a totally unbalanced team getting the runaround wouldnt have been fair to the boy at all. What chance would he have to shine?

Play him from the start against Lichtenstein and/or Iceland alongside some experienced midfielders and give him the best chance to show what he can do.

Just my opinion mind.....

Clarke  has previous for filling squads with players he has no intention of giving any game time to. The boy that scored the 2nd goal for Greece was 17  ffs if they are considered good enough to be selected they should be played.

As has been mentioned in other posts the promising young players in Scotland have been badly coached and developed for years,by successive regimes

Some of these guys are regular starters for their respective teams, but get dumped in the nonsense that is the u21 set up, if they have the ability get them in the full squad and then maybe we could build a team for the future, instead of sticking with the so called experienced dross that constantly under performs year after year.

[dennyc]

6 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

 

As I said, I would have played Tierney in a 3 and Max instead of Ralston. Just to get some pace back into the side and give Greece something different to think about. I probably wouldnt have dropped Ferguson and I might have been tempted to put Hirst up top with Adams to give him some support. All decisions Clarke could have made differently.

 

 

Exactly the set up I was hoping for as well. For the reasons already covered. Adams gets slaughtered at times but exactly how much support does he get up front? Might not be world class but game  after game he runs himself ragged in the hope that McGinn and McTominey can push forward to help him. Seems a bit one dimensional from Clarke.....and predictable.  Pretty sure we could have put more pressure on Greece by playing two recognised strikers. Qualification criteria aside, I would like to have seen Conway ahead of Hirst. Although both are scoring for their Clubs. 

I also agree that some players appear to be able to do no wrong. Whereas others do a great job, always give their all, but get unwarranted abuse when results don't pan out. A bit like MFC in truth.

I still believe Clarke is well beyond his sell by date. Germany convinced me of that and, despite him suggesting he would reassess his approach, he is as negative, uninspiring and resistant to change as ever. 

[numpty]

22 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

The boy that scored the 2nd goal for Greece was 17

And later that same evening, so was this one.

[joewarkfanclub]

41 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Clarke  has previous for filling squads with players he has no intention of giving any game time to. The boy that scored the 2nd goal for Greece was 17  ffs if they are considered good enough to be selected they should be played.

As has been mentioned in other posts the promising young players in Scotland have been badly coached and developed for years,by successive regimes

Some of these guys are regular starters for their respective teams, but get dumped in the nonsense that is the u21 set up, if they have the ability get them in the full squad and then maybe we could build a team for the future, instead of sticking with the so called experienced dross that constantly under performs year after year.

Your comparing apples with oranges.

The 17 year old greek was a winger.

Clarke started Doak at 18 years old on the wing in the Nations league on the wing to some success.

Miller is up against Gilmour, McTominay, McGinn, Christie and Ferguson for a start.

I get that McLean started both games and folks will point to that, but he captains Norwich in the Championship and is highly experienced, not to mention under rated.

Do we really think Lennon is ahead of any of these guys right now?

The boy has a great future ahead of him and will have a great career. But lets be realistic about our expectations and not just react to what was undoubtedly a poor performance.....

[wellsince75]

14 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Your comparing apples with oranges.

The 17 year old greek was a winger.

Clarke started Doak at 18 years old on the wing in the Nations league on the wing to some success.

Miller is up against Gilmour, McTominay, McGinn, Christie and Ferguson for a start.

I get that McLean started both games and folks will point to that, but he captains Norwich in the Championship and is highly experienced, not to mention under rated.

Do we really think Lennon is ahead of any of these guys right now?

The boy has a great future ahead of him and will have a great career. But lets be realistic about our expectations and not just react to what was undoubtedly a poor performance.....

This is the key point - the one area Scotland are relatively strong is midfield. 

Had Miller been a promising defender/striker I suspect he'd have been given his chance irrespective of age/who he plays for.  Overall fabulous for him to be called up to the first squad at 18.  
 

[ropy]

7 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I agree with most of what you usually say Joe, but not over this. That said, I would not have started Miller for the reasons you state ie. too much at stake. However at some point late on in the game, we could debate the precise time, when it was clear to all and sundry that we weren't going to win or even draw the tie. Miller should have been introduced and given his first cap. Just 5 or 10 minutes. His first chance to play for the full team, play at a Hampden international, get used to the international stage, whatever. The lad could have beee told something along the lines of "The ties lost, just go out and savour the occasion." However that opportunity was missed due to a safety first risk averse manager. 

Thats one of the reasons we haven't progressed at international level for decades and won't do so for years to come. Our youths are being mismanaged. 

Wilson got that opportunity which was probably a more sensible change at the time.

[joewarkfanclub]

4 minutes ago, ropy said:

Wilson got that opportunity which was probably a more sensible change at the time.

As did Max Johnston in Athens.....

[weeyin]

He's better than Kenny McLean, though,

[Spiderpig]

3 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Your comparing apples with oranges.

The 17 year old greek was a winger.

It's irrelevant what position he plays he could have been a striker, defender, keeper etc the point is he's 17, considered good enough for international football and was played, that does not happen if you are Scottish at least not under Clarke.

Greece had a 17yo winger scoring, Spain had a 17yo striker scoring, Scotland had alleged experienced duds not scoring and under performing again and we wonder why we get relegated.

[joewarkfanclub]

35 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

It's irrelevant what position he plays he could have been a striker, defender, keeper etc the point is he's 17, considered good enough for international football and was played, that does not happen if you are Scottish at least not under Clarke.

Greece had a 17yo winger scoring, Spain had a 17yo striker scoring, Scotland had alleged experienced duds not scoring and under performing again and we wonder why we get relegated.

Its not irrelevant.

Far less risk playing a young winger than a player right in the centre of the park.

The winger has the freedom to take players on and if they lose it, its not going to be in a area where you can be hurt.

Totally different situation if your no.6 does the same.

You also ignored the competition for places. Unless you are calling Gilmour, McTominay, McGinn, Christie and Ferguson duds.

In addition to Doak, Clarke has also thrown in Hickey, Patterson, Conway and now Johnston and Wilson.

The idea that he doesnt play young talent is a myth.

 

[Stuwell2]

Clarke’s attitude to football management is the same as Kettlewell’s. The man has an inability to change things until it to late and then it’s throw the kitchen sink at the lost cause. 
After watching the second half in Athens it was clear that a back four was not going to work, I’d have went for three central defenders, MJ right wingback and AR or KT left wingback with the other playing on the left of the three defenders. 

[wellfan]

Gemmill and Clarke only retain their jobs because those who run the SFA are too insular and too stupid to see beyond their own four walls. 

[Spiderpig]

54 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Gemmill and Clarke only retain their jobs because those who run the SFA are too insular and too stupid to see beyond their own four walls. 

Correct, far more concerned with the expense paid trips abroad, Uefa and Fifa committee posts and their own SFA posts etc than getting a proper development structure in place to actually improve the national team.

[wellfan]

If you go back through this topic, you’ll see that the majority of us have been making the same comments about Clarke, Gemmill and the SFA for the past couple of years. And they’re not uncommon comments amongst fans of Scottish football. It’s utterly infuriating. It’s a situation that will likely take a vast protest at Hampden led by the Tartan Army before the jobs-for-the-boys cabal are finally ousted. 

[numpty]

31 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Correct, far more concerned with the expense paid trips abroad, Uefa and Fifa committee posts and their own SFA posts etc than getting a proper development structure in place to actually improve the national team.

Which is daft, because they'd get even more of those if they actually improved the national team.

[Kmcalpin]

20 hours ago, weeyin said:

Meanwhile the U21s are getting gubbed 6 - 1 by Iceland as Gemmill continues his stellar youth coaching career.

This should set the alarm bells ringing at SFA HQ, but won't. This is our next generation of talent, so my expectations for the full international side over the next decade are zero. 

[weeyin]

It's not the trips abroad that are the problem. They don't want to upset the Old Firm by shaking up the current development structure and making things a bit more equal across the board.

Last thing Rangers and Celtic want is stronger competition from the wee teams.

[joewarkfanclub]

8 hours ago, Stuwell2 said:

Clarke’s attitude to football management is the same as Kettlewell’s. The man has an inability to change things until it to late and then it’s throw the kitchen sink at the lost cause. 
After watching the second half in Athens it was clear that a back four was not going to work, I’d have went for three central defenders, MJ right wingback and AR or KT left wingback with the other playing on the left of the three defenders. 

I agree with most of that.

He should have changed away from 3 at the back during the Euros when KT got injured. We would still have had difficulties given we were already without Doak, Hickey and Patterson for pace and width, but he compounded it by playing an extra centre half instead of bolstering the midfield.

He 100% should have changed back after the second half in Athens, with KT fit and available, and no Doak.