AllyMax Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 19 minutes ago, smiddy said: and what do you think ????????????? Other people suggested it earlier in this thread, so you never know. Along with others such as Duncan Ferguson (and the usual 'he'd sort them oot' crap you get about people like him and Lennon) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 2 hours ago, dennyc said: So not any suggestion then that folk could debate? Very easy to pick holes in the Club's choice but unwilling to risk your own credibility by coming up with an alternative. Fair enough. It has nothing to do with risking my credibility; I just can't be arsed playing chess with a pigeon on this point. People can and should present their views on a current manager without having to have an alternative suggestion immediately lined up purely to satisfy an inevitable continuing line of questioning. That type of questioning is not debating; it's a deliberately quarrelsome approach to try to disparage the views of others. It suggests that someone's view on a topic is invalid because they don't present the solution alongside their critique. Anyway, I've already contributed to this debate by offering my view that he was the wrong man at the wrong time and for the reasons outlined. However, if others want to suggest potential candidates, thus giving you what you require or else you suggest their views are untrustworthy, they can crack on and present their shortlists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 4 hours ago, wellfan said: My view is that we should've learned the lesson during the Hammell debacle that promoting from within may be the cheap option in the short term but is likely to be more costly in the long term in terms of poor performances and the lost revenue that can lead to, and the potential gardening leave when it goes wrong. Is it really "promoting from within" when the guy had been at the club for four months? Would you have felt better about the appointment of Kettlewell had he been appointed as manager but hadn't taken the lead development coach position a few months earlier? Also, is it really the cheap option? I don't see how that would be the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 33 minutes ago, wellfan said: It has nothing to do with risking my credibility; I just can't be arsed playing chess with a pigeon on this point. People can and should present their views on a current manager without having to have an alternative suggestion immediately lined up purely to satisfy an inevitable continuing line of questioning. That type of questioning is not debating; it's a deliberately quarrelsome approach to try to disparage the views of others. It suggests that someone's view on a topic is invalid because they don't present the solution alongside their critique. Anyway, I've already contributed to this debate by offering my view that he was the wrong man at the wrong time and for the reasons outlined. However, if others want to suggest potential candidates, thus giving you what you require or else you suggest their views are untrustworthy, they can crack on and present their shortlists. You are of course entitled to criticise SK and have done extensively. And of course you dont have to identify who you thing would do a better job than him. But by not doing so you leave a void and the credible argument presented previously, which is, there may not be anyone better on the money we are willing or able to pay. The list of candidates on the last 2 occasions was less than inspiring which is why Hammell and then Kettlewell got the job. Lets face it, with the budget we are running, its just not attractive to anyone with any pedigree. Which is why we get rookies & journeymen....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 9 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said: You are of course entitled to criticise SK and have done extensively. And of course you dont have to identify who you thing would do a better job than him. But by not doing so you leave a void and the credible argument presented previously, which is, there may not be anyone better on the money we are willing or able to pay. The list of candidates on the last 2 occasions was less than inspiring which is why Hammell and then Kettlewell got the job. Lets face it, with the budget we are running, its just not attractive to anyone with any pedigree. Which is why we get rookies & journeymen....... Then we’ll continue to get rookies and journeymen and suffer the mediocrity/failure that brings unless we show some ambition as I suggested above. However, if the club is content to scrape 10th place most seasons, fail to go on domestic cup runs, and tolerate shocking runs of form with the odd random victory, then the conveyor belt of rookies and journeymen is there for them to continually pick from. That's probably not going to keep the masses on side for long though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 9 hours ago, David said: Is it really "promoting from within" when the guy had been at the club for four months? Would you have felt better about the appointment of Kettlewell had he been appointed as manager but hadn't taken the lead development coach position a few months earlier? Also, is it really the cheap option? I don't see how that would be the case. He was promoted from within as he currently held a lesser post at the club. I still wouldn't have been pleased with his appointment if hadn't held the lead development coach position, as his managerial record at Ross County wasn't great. Maybe he wasn't the cheap option, and maybe he was, but he was likely the easy option given he was deemed a promotable current employee. It's generally cheaper/easier to recruit from within than undertake an external recruitment exercise. A club generally has to speculate to accumulate, yet it appears to me that the club is scrimping and expecting to accumulate. The scrimping approach may come good next season, but I just don't see anything other than more of the same for as long as we maintain the current regime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 28 minutes ago, wellfan said: Then we’ll continue to get rookies and journeymen and suffer the mediocrity/failure that brings unless we show some ambition as I suggested above. However, if the club is content to scrape 10th place most seasons, fail to go on domestic cup runs, and tolerate shocking runs of form with the odd random victory, then the conveyor belt of rookies and journeymen is there for them to continually pick from. That's probably not going to keep the masses on side for long though. Realistically then where do you see the clubs ambition to be at each season, league champions, win a cup, top 4 finish, European football every year, given the budget under which we operate? As for the rookies / journeymen you mention whether that be players or managers, the harsh reality is that's the market we are in, people need to realise that the money we offer for salaries, player budgets, transfer fees etc etc is never going to attract any big name managers or players. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 33 minutes ago, Spiderpig said: Realistically then where do you see the clubs ambition to be at each season, league champions, win a cup, top 4 finish, European football every year, given the budget under which we operate? I've written about this elsewhere. I don't expect much but I expect better than we’ve had recently. At least one cup run every season, plus top 6 and European football maybe twice a decade or so. 35 minutes ago, Spiderpig said: As for the rookies / journeymen you mention whether that be players or managers, the harsh reality is that's the market we are in, people need to realise that the money we offer for salaries, player budgets, transfer fees etc etc is never going to attract any big name managers or players. The market we operate in is shit because we keep aiming low with a shit budget that will never increase unless we speculate and aim to achieve some of the basic targets I mentioned above, which do bring financial reward. I worry that budgeting and aiming for 10th at best every season will only see us go in one direction in the longer term. That's called a managed decline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, wellfan said: Then we’ll continue to get rookies and journeymen and suffer the mediocrity/failure that brings unless we show some ambition as I suggested above. However, if the club is content to scrape 10th place most seasons, fail to go on domestic cup runs, and tolerate shocking runs of form with the odd random victory, then the conveyor belt of rookies and journeymen is there for them to continually pick from. That's probably not going to keep the masses on side for long though. We'll see where we finish in May, but we haven't finished 10th or below since 2014/15, so it's not happening most seasons. If someone from the club suggested they'd be content with that, I missed it. Ruling out rookies and journeymen leaves us with experienced managers who have a proven, ongoing track record of success at our level. I'm struggling to find anyone who fits that bill and would realistically be interested in coming here. It looks like most Premier clubs are struggling on that front too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 11 minutes ago, wellfan said: The market we operate in is shit because we keep aiming low with a shit budget that will never increase unless we speculate The basic principle of speculation is that you need cash in the 1st place to speculate with, which we don't have so hence the need to live with our means. So unless a billionaire oil sheik or a group of investors give the club shed loads of cash to spend as we want, with no guarantee of a return it won't happen, the odd bucket collection before a game won't cut it. So living within our means in the "shit market " as you put it is where we are, and we've done OK over the last 38 seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 40 minutes ago, wellfan said: I've written about this elsewhere. I don't expect much but I expect better than we’ve had recently. At least one cup run every season, plus top 6 and European football maybe twice a decade or so. The market we operate in is shit because we keep aiming low with a shit budget that will never increase unless we speculate and aim to achieve some of the basic targets I mentioned above, which do bring financial reward. I worry that budgeting and aiming for 10th at best every season will only see us go in one direction in the longer term. That's called a managed decline. The club may budget for tenth but I'm not sure that's what they aim for. We had top six and European football two years ago and we were 7th last season and 5th the season before. We need investment, as everyone knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 50 minutes ago, Spiderpig said: The basic principle of speculation is that you need cash in the 1st place to speculate with, which we don't have so hence the need to live with our means. So unless a billionaire oil sheik or a group of investors give the club shed loads of cash to spend as we want, with no guarantee of a return it won't happen, the odd bucket collection before a game won't cut it. So living within our means in the "shit market " as you put it is where we are, and we've done OK over the last 38 seasons. You outline why we require investment, hence my comment regarding speculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 42 minutes ago, wellgirl said: The club may budget for tenth but I'm not sure that's what they aim for. We had top six and European football two years ago and we were 7th last season and 5th the season before. We need investment, as everyone knows. Of course, we aim higher, but the budget tends to dictate the final result, barring the exceptions of the past you mentioned. And yes, we do need investment so that our aims can become a consistent reality instead of an occasional exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 15 hours ago, wellfan said: It has nothing to do with risking my credibility; I just can't be arsed playing chess with a pigeon on this point. People can and should present their views on a current manager without having to have an alternative suggestion immediately lined up purely to satisfy an inevitable continuing line of questioning. That type of questioning is not debating; it's a deliberately quarrelsome approach to try to disparage the views of others. It suggests that someone's view on a topic is invalid because they don't present the solution alongside their critique. Anyway, I've already contributed to this debate by offering my view that he was the wrong man at the wrong time and for the reasons outlined. However, if others want to suggest potential candidates, thus giving you what you require or else you suggest their views are untrustworthy, they can crack on and present their shortlists. In my view Hammell was the wrong person at the wrong time more than Kettlewell. SK kept us up last season and for that he deserves credit in my view. It's also not easy to say what other people who applied for the role did or didn't have as attributes compared to SK and why the club felt that SK was the better option. It's not something fans will be told. SK also got I think it was two games as caretaker manager and from recollection we won them both - so that had to go in his favour surely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 44 minutes ago, wellgirl said: In my view Hammell was the wrong person at the wrong time more than Kettlewell. SK kept us up last season and for that he deserves credit in my view. It's also not easy to say what other people who applied for the role did or didn't have as attributes compared to SK and why the club felt that SK was the better option. It's not something fans will be told. SK also got I think it was two games as caretaker manager and from recollection we won them both - so that had to go in his favour surely. Also just got us our first win at Ibrox in top flight league in 27 years so he has something about him. I think he will turn out to be a good manager for us. The more experience he gets, I’m sure the better he will become. For sure he makes errors, probably overthinks some games but I think his methods, philosophy and personality will stand him (and MFC) in good stead. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizzlyg Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 After the Warnock shambles at Aberdeen remember that we interviewed Ian Holloway. Imagine the media circus if he had got the job. Kettlewell for me was the correct appointment and I think he is improving in small steps. Keep us safe and a major rebuild in the summer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 10 hours ago, wellfan said: He was promoted from within as he currently held a lesser post at the club. I still wouldn't have been pleased with his appointment if hadn't held the lead development coach position, as his managerial record at Ross County wasn't great. Maybe he wasn't the cheap option, and maybe he was, but he was likely the easy option given he was deemed a promotable current employee. It's generally cheaper/easier to recruit from within than undertake an external recruitment exercise. A club generally has to speculate to accumulate, yet it appears to me that the club is scrimping and expecting to accumulate. The scrimping approach may come good next season, but I just don't see anything other than more of the same for as long as we maintain the current regime. The problem with speculate to accumulate is that it doesnt come risk free. Look at us under Dempster/McCall. We were spending significantly more then than we are now and we did get higher league positions, the odd cup run and European football. It was good fun, but we made significant losses every season that could not be sustained. Look at Dundee United, Hibs and Aberdeen. They have all been spending significant sums of cash in order to "speculate to accumulate" and none of them have any better recent records than ourselves. I think fiscal prudence in our current fan owned set up is not only wise but necessary to ensure our continued existence. The last couple of seasons havent been easy, but it looks like we will retian our top flight status this season and be in a better position to build and move forward next season. Given the changes that are coming down the line at executive level, keeping faith in the manager that has been through the process and allowing him to build in what he has done so far seems sensible to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smiddy Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 23 hours ago, AllyMax said: Other people suggested it earlier in this thread, so you never know. Along with others such as Duncan Ferguson (and the usual 'he'd sort them oot' crap you get about people like him and Lennon) naw mate youv picked me up wrong, a canny stick the wee contankarous gob shite, ever since he signed his own bro, and other things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyMax Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, smiddy said: naw mate youv picked me up wrong, a canny stick the wee contankarous gob shite, ever since he signed his own bro, and other things Good man 🙂 I'm 100% with you on that 🙂 I'm sure it was mentioned that we 'lacked the ambition' to go for him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllyMax Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said: The problem with speculate to accumulate is that it doesnt come risk free. Look at us under Dempster/McCall. We were spending significantly more then than we are now and we did get higher league positions, the odd cup run and European football. It was good fun, but we made significant losses every season that could not be sustained. Look at Dundee United, Hibs and Aberdeen. They have all been spending significant sums of cash in order to "speculate to accumulate" and none of them have any better recent records than ourselves. I think fiscal prudence in our current fan owned set up is not only wise but necessary to ensure our continued existence. The last couple of seasons havent been easy, but it looks like we will retian our top flight status this season and be in a better position to build and move forward next season. Given the changes that are coming down the line at executive level, keeping faith in the manager that has been through the process and allowing him to build in what he has done so far seems sensible to me. Spot on mate. A lot of teams have 'shown ambition' and 'speculated'. e.g. Gretna, Livingston, Airdrie, Dundee, Hearts (they might be 3rd now but there's an administration from the 'speculation' years to consider), us under Boyle and Nevin. There must be more that I'l missing, but I don't recall a recent story of a team in Scotland ploughing loads of money into a team, being mega succesful and becoming financially viable from their investment. There is no money to be made in Scottish football for anyone outside the uglies (and look at the financial state one of them is in). Even in the EPL, the sucessful teams are making massive losses and have 'donors' throwing hundreds of millions in which they'll never see again. The path we're on is the only viable one and to my mind, thats why any 'investment' needs a hell of a lot of scrutiny before moving forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 I was already over here before administration times so not 100% sure exactly what happened but seems like we spent a lot of money buying players and giving them high wages in anticipation of them performing. I’m not so much in favour of repeating that but more in the way of having funds to help us thru years where we incur losses and also to enable us to offer competitive salaries to players we want to Keep. Having said that i mean with respect to teams in Scotland other than old firm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 As I’ve said many times on here in defence of my argument for having ambition and in response to those of cry wolf about what has happened to Dundee United, Gretna, etc., it doesn't have to be a famine-to-feast scenario for us. There's fiscal prudence and there's throwing millions, but there's also an in-between, and it’s that middle ground I would like to see implemented once the Club and Society have sorted out the governance and financial side of things. It's tiresome reading responses from folks who consistently shout ‘But look at club x, y, z’ when someone dares to suggest the Club has a little ambition. I'm accused of being negative about Kettlewell, which is fine, but the negativity towards those who suggest seeking to achieve something better is equally loud. Have some ambition! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellgirl Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 2 hours ago, wellfan said: As I’ve said many times on here in defence of my argument for having ambition and in response to those of cry wolf about what has happened to Dundee United, Gretna, etc., it doesn't have to be a famine-to-feast scenario for us. There's fiscal prudence and there's throwing millions, but there's also an in-between, and it’s that middle ground I would like to see implemented once the Club and Society have sorted out the governance and financial side of things. It's tiresome reading responses from folks who consistently shout ‘But look at club x, y, z’ when someone dares to suggest the Club has a little ambition. I'm accused of being negative about Kettlewell, which is fine, but the negativity towards those who suggest seeking to achieve something better is equally loud. Have some ambition! I personally don't understand why Motherwell appointing Kettlewell suggests a lack of ambition. Look at some of the names earlier on in the thread that some people wanted, because they thought they were decent managers - Jim Goodwin for example. There are zero guarantees that if Motherwell appointed a bigger name we would automatically do better. It's all finance driven as you say anyway. The club needs more money to be able to succeed on so many levels. I personally don't understand why criticism of the clubs lack of ambition as some people see it seems to be linked in with Stuart Kettlewell. Is the suggestion that he isn't good enough to be our manager? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 27 minutes ago, wellgirl said: I personally don't understand why Motherwell appointing Kettlewell suggests a lack of ambition. That's completely fine to have that view, but I think it shows the opposite for the reasons I've outlined. We took the cheap and/or easy option. 29 minutes ago, wellgirl said: There are zero guarantees that if Motherwell appointed a bigger name we would automatically do better. There are also zero guarantees that promoting from within would lead to us doing better, but we still went for that option. I've avoided suggesting or discounting any names on this topic, but my view is that being more ambitious doesn't have to mean seeking a ‘bigger name’, such as Goodwin or Lennon, but that we could've looked beyond our own ranks for someone with more first-team managerial experience, demonstrable tactical nous, and some relative success. For example, a lower league experienced manager who's shown they're capable of stepping up. Instead, we’ve got someone learning on the job, albeit he kept us up last season, but the learning curve has proven costly this season in terms of the lack of cup progression and league position. He has a massive (third) transfer window ahead of him, otherwise, next season will likely be more of the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witchfindergeneral Posted March 20 Report Share Posted March 20 5 minutes ago, wellfan said: For example, a lower league experienced manager who's shown they're capable of stepping up. Would love to hear your nominations for this one. Dick Campbell? Jim Goodwin? James McPake? Ian Murray? Paul Hartley? Ian McCall? Airdrie player/manager Rhys McCabe? Not exactly inspiring names Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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