Motherwell v Dundee 02/12/2023

[dinnae-punt-it]

I’m amazed that this wasn’t picked up by VAR or the BBC pundits, but it looks like Oli Shaw is a mile offside from the goal kick. 

[GrahamH]

7 minutes ago, dinnae-punt-it said:

I’m amazed that this wasn’t picked up by VAR or the BBC pundits, but it looks like Oli Shaw is a mile offside from the goal kick. 

You can’t be offside from a goal kick.

[dinnae-punt-it]

5 minutes ago, GrahamH said:

You can’t be offside from a goal kick.

I’m a muppet. Has that always been the case? If so, I’ve completely missed that rule. I knew it applied to throw ins but had no idea about direct goal kicks. 

[Great Balls of Shire]

14 hours ago, MJC said:

Yeah okay we didn’t lose. By the skin of our teeth.

But I was right again about us not being able to win one game, never mind three. And given that we were at home against an equally poor Dundee side then you would hope that we could have picked up maximum points. Instead we just scraped one by scoring in the last seconds.

We are in the same position now that we have been for the last three months. We can’t win football matches and therefore we are in trouble.

I don't disagree we are in trouble but you are on every week with your predictions....usually predicting defeats and usually wrong scorelines.

If you had a track record of getting scoreline right you'd be a rich man and we would all take you seriously...Just a bit tedious and bad for morale...we are in a fight for sure 

[Great Balls of Shire]

Watched highlights last night, Paton really unlucky to see red.... there's no malice in that challenge.

I thought var would be a good thing but I wouldn't be against it being scaled back to maybe being allowed 2 challenges per team per game.

[Great Balls of Shire]

13 hours ago, couttsy said:

At least we got a point, that’s the positives out the way! 
 

In fairness I thought SK picked the right team, however it was apparent half way through the first half that Dundee were being afforded far too much space (number 10 in particular)

Didnt make it to Celtic park last week but Butcher in Midfield was horrible today, he sat too deep, didn’t pick up runners and was generally too slow. That position is a big problem with young Miller out.

We deffo have more problems than solutions after today! 

Fair play to Wilkinson for keeping his composure and winning us a point. Particularly given he’d been terrible up until then! 

Not been impressed by Wilkinson but he took his goal well and was unlucky with other effort, who knows, might be something there.

[Kmcalpin]

13 hours ago, couttsy said:

In fairness I thought SK picked the right team, however it was apparent half way through the first half that Dundee were being afforded far too much space (number 10 in particular)

On paper I agreed too, but on the field it soon became apparent that the actual formation was causing us serious problems. An out of touch Butcher was playing almost as part of a back 6, with a 2, possibly 3 man midfield and an isolated striker having to feed off long aerial balls. After an encouraging early goal, we sat back and packed our penalty box. Dundee were allowed to swarm all over us and were afforded as much time and space as they wanted. In short we were far too passive. Again we looked very narrow and Dundee took full advantage of space out wide. They knew our weaknesses.

Dundee were no world beaters, but looked faster and better organised than us on the day. The team does have something though to come back a man down and snatch a late leveller, not for the first time. Our defending was abysmal and we looked disorganised. When out of possession we lost all shape. A lot of these weaknesses are down to the manager. Players who were playing well months ago are now playing poorly en masse. Thats down to the manager.

All things told I reckon it was a point gained and not two lost - a sad indictment on how poorly we played.  

VAR spoiled today's game and provided plenty of talking points. Overall though, the ref had a good game considering he was rookie at this level. After having watched the highlights, I’m baffled as to why there was no VAR check for Dundee’s first. When the ball is lofted back in there are 3 Dundee players, including the scorer, clearly offside.  Was there a very slight deflection? I can see now why Mugabi’s goal was scrutinised for fouling – maybe 50/50. Harry Paton’s red card  -wrong. A yellow card, as originally awarded by the ref. He was going for the ball, which was at knee height, as was McCowan. Is it a case of who gets there first? A bizarre incident late on, when Boateng went down injured after being pulled back. He fell to the deck clutching his ankle to waste time, and was asked to leave to the field by the officials. He complied only to be blocked by Tony Docherty and pushed back on again. You couldn’t make it up.

[Great Balls of Shire]

2 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

On paper I agreed too, but on the field it soon became apparent that the actual formation was causing us serious problems. An out of touch Butcher was playing almost as part of a back 6, with a 2, possibly 3 man midfield and an isolated striker having to feed off long aerial balls. After an encouraging early goal, we sat back and packed our penalty box. Dundee were allowed to swarm all over us and were afforded as much time and space as they wanted. In short we were far too passive. Again we looked very narrow and Dundee took full advantage of space out wide. They knew our weaknesses.

Dundee were no world beaters, but looked faster and better organised than us on the day. The team does have something though to come back a man down and snatch a late leveller, not for the first time. Our defending was abysmal and we looked disorganised. When out of possession we lost all shape. A lot of these weaknesses are down to the manager. Players who were playing well months ago are now playing poorly en masse. Thats down to the manager.

All things told I reckon it was a point gained and not two lost - a sad indictment on how poorly we played.  

VAR spoiled today's game and provided plenty of talking points. Overall though, the ref had a good game considering he was rookie at this level. After having watched the highlights, I’m baffled as to why there was no VAR check for Dundee’s first. When the ball is lofted back in there are 3 Dundee players, including the scorer, clearly offside.  Was there a very slight deflection? I can see now why Mugabi’s goal was scrutinised for fouling – maybe 50/50. Harry Paton’s red card  -wrong. A yellow card, as originally awarded by the ref. He was going for the ball, which was at knee height, as was McCowan. Is it a case of who gets there first? A bizarre incident ate on, when Boateng went down injured after being pulled back. He fell to the deck clutching his ankle to waste time, and was asked to leave to the field by the officials. He complied only to be blocked by Tony Docherty and pushed back on again. You couldn’t make it up.

There was a rangers European game a few years ago when Roofe tried to lob keeper and caught him , keeper got a really bad injury on head , Roofe was sent off

Don't want to see players sent off for genuine challenges, it shouldn't be a red for the extent of the injury, only if there is intent or malice.

[Kmcalpin]

2 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Don't want to see players sent off for genuine challenges, it shouldn't be a red for the extent of the injury, only if there is intent or malice.

Agreed. Did VAR overrule the ref yesterday? It seems to be the case that if 2 players are going for a ball at the same height and one gets caught, then the later of the two gets red carded. Paton may not even have seen McCowan steaming in from the side yesterday, as he was focused purely on the ball.  He clearly thought that a yellow card was harsh.

[GrahamH]

35 minutes ago, dinnae-punt-it said:

I’m a muppet. Has that always been the case? If so, I’ve completely missed that rule. I knew it applied to throw ins but had no idea about direct goal kicks. 

Yes mate, that’s been the rule for as long as I can remember.

[GrahamH]

2 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Agreed. Did VAR overrule the ref yesterday? It seems to be the case that if 2 players are going for a ball at the same height and one gets caught, then the later of the two gets red carded. Paton may not even have seen McCowan steaming in from the side yesterday, as he was focused purely on the ball.  He clearly thought that a yellow card was harsh.

VAR can’t overrule the ref, they can only ask them to look at it again to see if they want to change their initial decision. Paton knew he was at risk of going off as he looked up to check the colour of the card when he was booked.

[Kmcalpin]

4 minutes ago, GrahamH said:

VAR can’t overrule the ref, they can only ask them to look at it again to see if they want to change their initial decision. Paton knew he was at risk of going off as he looked up to check the colour of the card when he was booked.

In theory you're right although I suppose it depends on the definition of "asked"

[Happy Dosser]

36 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I’m baffled as to why there was no VAR check for Dundee’s first. When the ball is lofted back in there are 3 Dundee players, including the scorer, clearly offside.  Was there a very slight deflection?

I thought the same at the time and so did a few of the intelligensia around me in the POD and yet it wasn't mentioned on Sportscene either.

As for Paton, it looked like he was focused on the high ball but a fractional late. There was no malice in the tackle and none of the 'Dee players reacted to it at the time.

I may be clutching at straws but Wilkinson's goal was surprisingly well taken and he was unlucky with another two efforts so he may be finally getting up to speed. Either that or I've taken too much cough mixture.

[Great Balls of Shire]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

Agreed. Did VAR overrule the ref yesterday? It seems to be the case that if 2 players are going for a ball at the same height and one gets caught, then the later of the two gets red carded. Paton may not even have seen McCowan steaming in from the side yesterday, as he was focused purely on the ball.  He clearly thought that a yellow card was harsh.

The original concept of var was for " clear and obvious errors" ...it's just analysing everything now...that Paton decision was never a clear and obvious error.

[Spiderpig]

3 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

The original concept of var was for " clear and obvious errors" ...it's just analysing everything now...that Paton decision was never a clear and obvious error.

I was in favour of VAR when it was brought in, but not now its ruining the game, even the best version on show in European and English premiership games is becoming a nonsense, what chance do we have in Scotland with the pound shop version and amateurs running it.

It was a nice experiment but for me it needs dumped and control given back to the onfield officials.

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 hour ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Watched highlights last night, Paton really unlucky to see red.... there's no malice in that challenge.

I thought var would be a good thing but I wouldn't be against it being scaled back to maybe being allowed 2 challenges per team per game.

I mean, I'm old enough to remember the 80's and 90's but in the modern game that is a red card.

I think Kettlewell was right to question why Taylor wasn't sent off but I'm more of the opinion that they were both red cards rather than neither of them was.

It's still inconsistent refereeing and I don't think anyone would be surprised that it favoured the bigger team.

[stv]

Thought Kelly should have came out for the lob as soon as dundee guy hit it up in the air . Ball watching again.

[Ya Bezzer!]

6 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

I was in favour of VAR when it was brought in, but not now its ruining the game, even the best version on show in European and English premiership games is becoming a nonsense, what chance do we have in Scotland with the pound shop version and amateurs running it.

It was a nice experiment but for me it needs dumped and control given back to the onfield officials.

I was never in favour of VAR because I was aware that technology would never improve the standard of refereeing and administration in the Scottish game.  It's still the same people, or even a further sub stratum, of people making the decisions.

I don't have a problem with goal line technology and offsides but re-refereeing every decision and checking every goal is a disaster for football, especially for live spectators.

The essence of the game is being torn out.

[wellfan]

59 minutes ago, Happy Dosser said:

Either that or I've taken too much cough mixture.

Too much cough mixture. Four goals in seventeen appearances does not make him a good striker at this level. We need another striker capable of producing at least double that return instead of persisting with the likes of Shaw, Bair and Wilkinson. I leave Obika out of that, as he is head and shoulders above those three in terms of his ability and support play. Does Biereth have a twin?!

[wellfan]

24 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

The original concept of var was for " clear and obvious errors" ...it's just analysing everything now...that Paton decision was never a clear and obvious error.

VAR is re-refereeing games now, which isn't what it was implemented to do, so it's becoming more and more of a hindrance than a help. I'd keep it for offsides but bin it for the rest. I genuinely think fans will stop going to games, particularly those of an older vintage, as the joy of the game has been ruined and it's becoming toxic. And it's going to get worse the more the VARs are allowed to intervene with impunity. 

[Big Stall]

2 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

I don't disagree we are in trouble but you are on every week with your predictions....usually predicting defeats and usually wrong scorelines.

If you had a track record of getting scoreline right you'd be a rich man and we would all take you seriously...Just a bit tedious and bad for morale...we are in a fight for sure 

Has us getting relegated every year. He might as well keep it up

[SteelmaninOZ]

And a goal from our motm

 

[Richie]

Georgie Gent was getting his shirt ripped off at the back post late on in the game.

Didn't even go to VAR which is surprising as last week these were heavily scrutinised at Celtic Park and Pitrodrie and penalties given.

[GrahamH]

9 minutes ago, Richie said:

Georgie Gent was getting his shirt ripped off at the back post late on in the game.

Didn't even go to VAR which is surprising as last week these were heavily scrutinised at Celtic Park and Pitrodrie and penalties given.

You need to remember the criteria they look for:

Did the pull impede the player?

Did the player have any prospect of getting to the ball?

Does the player play for Celtic or Rangers? (most important)

[wellfan]

50 minutes ago, GrahamH said:

Does the player play for Celtic or Rangers? (most important)

Correct.