New Investment Options

[steelboy]

19 minutes ago, weeyin said:

 

Enjoyed the analysis of the "2017 Trump Tax Reforms' though. Thousands of pages of complex tax law distilled into "you can write off overseas losses".

 

Quote

 

General. For US tax purposes, a foreign branch (or foreign disregarded entity) of a domestic corporation in a consolidated group is generally treated as part of the domestic corporation. The income, deductions, losses and credits of the foreign branch are taken into account in calculating the tax liability of the US consolidated group.

A material benefit of operating through a foreign branch is that losses of the branch flow into the US consolidated group and reduce taxable income of the group. Dual consolidated loss rules, however, provide that such losses cannot be used currently if the losses can also be used by a foreign subsidiary to reduce its income under foreign law. Branch losses limited by this rule can be carried forward indefinitely and reduce future income of the foreign branch.

 

https://www.mwe.com/insights/taxation-of-foreign-branches-after-tax-reform/

So if we make a profit they make money and if we make a loss they claim it off their US tax bill. That's why all the American owners appeared on the scene at the same time.

 

[AllyMax]

Taylor Swift was on the news last night because her net worth has reached $1BN. Could this announcement possibly be coincedence ?

On a more serious note (just in case someone thinks the above was serious), I see the amateur accountants and corporate lawyers are out spouting shite again. It's amazing that a few people on here with such a multitude of business and football knowledge haven't bought the club already.

[dennyc]

I think I'll patiently wait until details of the proposed investment are officially released rather than listen to  conspiracy fantasists with an axe to grind. Then I'll make up my own mind as to whether any proposal gets my support.

It was only a matter of days ago we were told that no CEO discussions had taken place since December and that no effort was being made to fill the position. All part of the Board's devious masterplan. And apparently that was also from a solid ' In the know' source. In truth it was just more made up nonsense.

But I guess that if people shout loud enough then then their fiction will be taken by a few as gospel. After all, that's how ludicrous conspiracy theories gain traction. Quite revealing that a certain Donald Trump was mentioned. He is not really interested in facts or evidence either.

 

[stv]

5 hours ago, mio said:

Really interesting, wonder who the family are and what they do. The Kardashians like football don’t they? 🤣

Saw Kim in the Rex ordering a lunchtime pizza crunch supper wi broon sauce today.

[steelboy]

An utterly ridiculous statement from the Society. Nothing to do with them apparently, they are only the majority shareholder. 

McMahon and Dickie leading Feely around by the nose. 

 

 

[bobbybingo]

Funny to read Man Utd fans warning us about Americans buying the club. It's the ones from Motherwell you really need to watch.

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

I think I'll patiently wait until details of the proposed investment are officially released rather than listen to  conspiracy fantasists with an axe to grind. Then I'll make up my own mind as to whether any proposal gets my support.

My view too. However, I do hope and trust that, if and when any external investment proposal is put to the Society membership, then full details will be made available. Members can only make an informed decision if they have all the facts. 

[Kmcalpin]

58 minutes ago, steelboy said:

An utterly ridiculous statement from the Society. Nothing to do with them apparently, they are only the majority shareholder. 

McMahon and Dickie leading Feely around by the nose. 

Whilst I don't agree with your tone, I do agree 100% with your point. This very point is also being made on P & B. I get that the Society is not the club, but it is the major shareholder and as such the owner. Surely the Society is involved in the negotiations. It must know the details. If it doesn't then serious questions need to be asked. That's not say of course that details should be divulged to members at this stage of course. 

[Kmcalpin]

27 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

They are not involved in negotiations. They've just said this. Surely the fact that members will be able to accept or reject should be enough. 

Well, as the majority shareholder, and to all intents and purposes the owner it should be. It would appear that the Club board is two tier, with Society reps being junior partners. As a Society member, I sincerely hope that our representatives, are actively involved in any negotiations with potential investors. 

[Big Stall]

Steelboy moaning like fuck about this or anything is the biggest shock ever......

[MelvinBragg]

42 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

They've just put a statement out saying they aren't involved at this stage. 

I think there may be a distinction there. The Society as an organisation aren't involved in negotiations. But as members of the board of directors, the society reps on the board may well be involved in negotiations or at least privy to information...

[Mintymac]

Executive board seem to be doing what any other business would do in this type of negotiations.

outwith football Jim McMahon im  sure has  a knowledge of how this all works and I’m relatively relaxed .with how things are progressing .

For me a simple update is sufficient at this stage and as a £10 month Well Society member I’m not sure why I’d need to now much more at this stage of the negotiations or how my complete lack of knowledge on how these things work by throwing in my tuppence/thoughts would help proceedings 

Why don’t we just wait and see what the proposals are when finalised , see what the executive board recommend following these discussions then based on all that vote whatever way you think is best for the club going forward .

That tends to be how things work in any walk of life and as far as I can see this is no different .

Ok I get the anxiety some people may have at this stage about updates and info etc etc but that’s how business transaction’s/dealings  tend to work .

Im sure the executive board said they would be using a specialist /legal team to pour over the detail to prevent us being bitten or words to that effect

Dont think I need to know much more that that at this stage tbh .

So for the next 6 weeks think  we need to be patient . It’s not that long to wait tbh .

 

 

 

 

[Kmcalpin]

10 hours ago, MelvinBragg said:

I think there may be a distinction there. The Society as an organisation aren't involved in negotiations. But as members of the board of directors, the society reps on the board may well be involved in negotiations or at least privy to information...

Yes, may be a play on words Greg. An ambiguously worded statement. To go back to basics, the club currently has 3 directors, two of whom represent the majority shareholder i.e. the Society. The third being Jim McMahon. 

I can't think of any privately owned club and situation where the majority shareholder is not involved in major investment negotiations. Surely Douglas Dickie and Tom Feely are acting as a 2 way conduit and not in a vacuum? Surely they are putting forward a Society view and acting in its interest in negotiations and feeding back information to the Society Board? I'd hate to think that they were taking an active part in negotiations, knowing some aspect(s) of the proposal might not be acceptable to the Society, but could not voice those concerns because they were not "acting in the Society's interest" so to speak.  If not, in whose interest are they acting (the Club's ?????).

I have no problem with the amount of information being released. Lilke Mintymac, I think a simple update is sufficient  and regular communications every 4/6/8 weeks or whatever are fine. I'm not in favour of frequent and regular public sector style announcements simply saying nothing has happened or theres no change. Report by exception. I'm thinking of the old Monty Python airfield sketch here!  

[wellup83]

12 hours ago, wellgirl said:

They are not involved in negotiations

Add neither should they be. Fan owned or not, divulging potentially sensitive information to the Society would be making details of the negotiations public knowledge basically. I'm more than happy to wait for the details then say yes or no. The one thing that worries me is do we have enough intelligent, level headed members to make an informed and correct choice for the good of the club when the time comes?

[Great Balls of Shire]

1 hour ago, Mintymac said:

Executive board seem to be doing what any other business would do in this type of negotiations.

outwith football Jim McMahon im  sure has  a knowledge of how this all works and I’m relatively relaxed .with how things are progressing .

For me a simple update is sufficient at this stage and as a £10 month Well Society member I’m not sure why I’d need to now much more at this stage of the negotiations or how my complete lack of knowledge on how these things work by throwing in my tuppence/thoughts would help proceedings 

Why don’t we just wait and see what the proposals are when finalised , see what the executive board recommend following these discussions then based on all that vote whatever way you think is best for the club going forward .

That tends to be how things work in any walk of life and as far as I can see this is no different .

Ok I get the anxiety some people may have at this stage about updates and info etc etc but that’s how business transaction’s/dealings  tend to work .

Im sure the executive board said they would be using a specialist /legal team to pour over the detail to prevent us being bitten or words to that effect

Dont think I need to know much more that that at this stage tbh .

So for the next 6 weeks think  we need to be patient . It’s not that long to wait tbh .

 

 

 

 

Well said, my thoughts too.

Can you imagine some of the folk on here involved in the negotiating, potential investors would turn and walk away

It's all down to the figures, if it's a relatively small investment for  relatively small control, I don't see an issue

If we want to stand still and probably regress as a team, we can reject ,the wsmodel doesn't work, that fact has been done to death 

Its fine picking holes in every plan but if there is nothing better out there?

Personally mid table or worse isn't very entertaining any more , a lot of people must feel that way, if the attendance is anything to go by

[Mintymac]

16 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Well said, my thoughts too.

Can you imagine some of the folk on here involved in the negotiating, potential investors would turn and walk away

It's all down to the figures, if it's a relatively small investment for  relatively small control, I don't see an issue

If we want to stand still and probably regress as a team, we can reject ,the wsmodel doesn't work, that fact has been done to death 

Its fine picking holes in every plan but if there is nothing better out there?

Personally mid table or worse isn't very entertaining any more , a lot of people must feel that way, if the attendance is anything to go by

It would be fun to watch though some of the people who post on here sitting in the boardroom during commercial and legal proceedings . 
Id pay to watch that . Pure comedy  gold . 
Unfortunately £10 /month subscription wouldn’t get us a seat in the boardroom to watch that sketch 

[Kmcalpin]

The same could be said for many aspects of life such as juries and elections but we do live in a democratic society and thank goodness for that. We're a Jock Tamson"s bairns as they say. Everyone is entitled to a say. 

[StirlingDosser]

Okay here goes an essay...

As this progresses I find the society even more amateur and backpeddling from its failure. If the Well Society wasn't a failure this discussion wouldn't even be happening. The society are a group who have done very little in my view in recent years until the prospect of some external involvement knocking them off their perch. Saturday's Well Society day didn't convince me otherwise. The additional attention and focus they received on Saturday was considerably greater than our average match day sponsor (so I hope they stumped up an additional payment to the club for advertising, like we would ask of any sponsor). It can't be attractive to any investor I have to say when the organs of the club were promoting the alternative to investment throughout the day.

I was at Fir Park for the first time in a couple of years due to working abroad with a group of mates who support other provincial clubs and discussed all the politics of this probably in more depth than the match. When you are away for a while and come back it shows how we are falling behind the pack very quickly in terms of our facilities, budget and resilience. Before anyone gives us the "well rollercoaster" or "punching above out weight" lecture, let's look at three other clubs similar in size to us.

Dunfermline - relegated and not come back. 

Falkirk - just spent 8 years in league 1, lucky to still be on the go until their recent turn in fortunes - with the help of a blend of external investment and fan support 

Dundee United - the yo-yo club of the decade.

If Motherwell were in the situation of any of these clubs we would struggle to maintain ourselves without a shadow of doubt. All three of these clubs have different models and I accept that. But our budget and working capital differs to these three clubs as a result of top division TV money and away ticket revenue only. Our overall home ticket and commercial income is likey on a par. The additional investment is necessary or we will join that club, or likely be in even more of a right rope year on year financially than these guys as no fall guy would be there to cover the losses.

The Club needs to build a pathway towardsa substantial modernisation of our facilities and corporate operations. Our main training facilities are rented, our players are bussed between two sits for their training and we have a stadium which is in dire need of replacement once sentiments are put aside. We are simply no longer attractive to companies for corporate days or hospitality as we have such dated infrastructure. Once we have modernised infrastructure the club can start to widen its income and stability. 

The external investment at Dundee is being laughed at but I think long term as their project takes shape they will be the ones laughing. Unlike Aberdeen's new stadiums which have been proposed about 40 times, this genuinely seems to be making traction. We need to watch this as a "what could be" rather than looking at what is going wrong/has gone wrong elsewhere.

[steelboy]

So we are underperforming by out massively out performing Dundee United, Dunfermline and Falkirk?

You've not been near Fir Park in years but know exactly what the Society are doing wrong?

Nae bother mate.

 

 

[Great Balls of Shire]

10 minutes ago, steelboy said:

So we are underperforming by out massively out performing Dundee United, Dunfermline and Falkirk?

You've not been near Fir Park in years but know exactly what the Society are doing wrong?

Nae bother mate.

 

 

But you're always telling us what a poor team/ mgr we have

[Great Balls of Shire]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

The same could be said for many aspects of life such as juries and elections but we do live in a democratic society and thank goodness for that. We're a Jock Tamson"s bairns as they say. Everyone is entitled to a say. 

Good point but with juries, elections , the " facts" are laid out and people choose which way to go, we have no facts at minute, just rumours in a website

[Dee]

55 minutes ago, StirlingDosser said:

Okay here goes an essay...

As this progresses I find the society even more amateur and backpeddling from its failure. If the Well Society wasn't a failure this discussion wouldn't even be happening. The society are a group who have done very little in my view in recent years until the prospect of some external involvement knocking them off their perch. Saturday's Well Society day didn't convince me otherwise. The additional attention and focus they received on Saturday was considerably greater than our average match day sponsor (so I hope they stumped up an additional payment to the club for advertising, like we would ask of any sponsor). It can't be attractive to any investor I have to say when the organs of the club were promoting the alternative to investment throughout the day.

I was at Fir Park for the first time in a couple of years due to working abroad with a group of mates who support other provincial clubs and discussed all the politics of this probably in more depth than the match. When you are away for a while and come back it shows how we are falling behind the pack very quickly in terms of our facilities, budget and resilience. Before anyone gives us the "well rollercoaster" or "punching above out weight" lecture, let's look at three other clubs similar in size to us.

Dunfermline - relegated and not come back. 

Falkirk - just spent 8 years in league 1, lucky to still be on the go until their recent turn in fortunes - with the help of a blend of external investment and fan support 

Dundee United - the yo-yo club of the decade.

If Motherwell were in the situation of any of these clubs we would struggle to maintain ourselves without a shadow of doubt. All three of these clubs have different models and I accept that. But our budget and working capital differs to these three clubs as a result of top division TV money and away ticket revenue only. Our overall home ticket and commercial income is likey on a par. The additional investment is necessary or we will join that club, or likely be in even more of a right rope year on year financially than these guys as no fall guy would be there to cover the losses.

The Club needs to build a pathway towardsa substantial modernisation of our facilities and corporate operations. Our main training facilities are rented, our players are bussed between two sits for their training and we have a stadium which is in dire need of replacement once sentiments are put aside. We are simply no longer attractive to companies for corporate days or hospitality as we have such dated infrastructure. Once we have modernised infrastructure the club can start to widen its income and stability. 

The external investment at Dundee is being laughed at but I think long term as their project takes shape they will be the ones laughing. Unlike Aberdeen's new stadiums which have been proposed about 40 times, this genuinely seems to be making traction. We need to watch this as a "what could be" rather than looking at what is going wrong/has gone wrong elsewhere.

 

There's quite a lot to unpack there, some which I agree with and some which I don't. 

Let's start with where I do agree - in an ideal world it would be excellent to have our own training facility and the stadium needs modernised to an extent to make corporate days and hospitality more appealing. Both fair comments. 

Where I believe your argument falls down is the Dundee United comparison. Firstly, Dundee United are a much bigger club than Motherwell. Their average match-day attendance is almost double ours and their wage bill sits at £6.9million - significantly higher than ours. On top of that their recent annual accounts reported a £5m loss - up from £1.9m the year before - before player sales were taken into account. This all going on whilst under American ownership. In the 5 years under American ownership, United have experienced, as you rightly point out, relegation, they've had 6 different managers, protesting fans and have spent upwards of £10 million. 

Said American owner has continued spending and most worryingly has done this with an interest free loan against the club. I couldn't tell you the current total but a couple of years ago their accounts listed that the club owe said investor over £9m. How will they ever pay this back? Certainly a worrying situation. 

To quote a 'Well fan journo who penned this in a previous Herald article about United; 

"Wealthy benefactor? Check. Money being ploughed in? Check. Wages wildly exceeding turnover? Check. Careening through managers? Check. Success? That cheque is still in the post."

Now I know this thread is very much about Motherwell with the figures of our deal and details of the investors still to be presented to the wider fanbase, but it's certainly worth noting that not one American investor has brought notable success since they put their money into a Scottish football club. That success may come, but it's not guaranteed. 

And I'm not here to convince anyone that we shouldn't be entertaining any external investment, far from it. I think it's important we listen to all credible offers that come our way. I'm also not comparing the deal on the table at Fir Park to that at Dundee United, I'll wait until we all know the full facts. But I think it's hugely important to have a serious think about what our red lines are.

What do we value the football club at? What percentage of control would we be willing to relinquish and for what cost? What does any investor want to gain from putting their money into Motherwell FC? 

[Stuwell2]

Obviously we need to wait and see what the offer is and how it is structured but what do folk seriously think would be an acceptable level of investment for a minority control of the club?

I don’t know but the £300K per year mentioned earlier is less than 10% of our current turnover but if the £1.5M figure I seem to remember as our players wage bill is correct and the money all went to this then that’s a 20% increase. 

You could equate that to one extra player on just under £6K per week, two extra players on £3K or three extra players on £2K per week. Would bringing in one, two or three players who would accept these wages really change things or guarantee our top flight survival long term? I don’t think so. In which case what would be the point or worth of accepting such an offer?

[steelboy]

8 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

But you're always telling us what a poor team/ mgr we have

Playing side versus off field. 

Other than the takeover and the pitch fiasco I think the non playing side has been fine.

It's all worth bearing in mind that the Well Society doesn't have  majority control of the executive board. The club has been run by the exact same clique of people for the past 20 years. So blaming the Well Society for level of investment in corporate facilities is a clear sign someone doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.  

[StirlingDosser]

2 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Playing side versus off field. 

Other than the takeover and the pitch fiasco I think the non playing side has been fine.

It's all worth bearing in mind that the Well Society doesn't have  majority control of the executive board. The club has been run by the exact same clique of people for the past 20 years. So blaming the Well Society for level of investment in corporate facilities is a clear sign someone doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.  

I didn't blame the Well Society for a lack of investment in facilities. I pointed out that it has happened and needs addressed, and that is unlikely to happen under our current funding model. I'll just skip past the insult.