Motherwell v St Mirren 28/09/2024

[Spiderpig]

1 hour ago, Onthefringes said:

Casey wasn’t sent off for denying a certain goal. Butland’s positioning counts for nothing when both offences deny a clear goalscoring opportunity… consistency is key.

Consistency is an unknown concept for Scottish referees, I thought the new VAR technology would end all these debates, but it hasn't, all it's done is highlight the fact that the referees are worse than we imagined at times.

[dennyc]

The only difference between the two incidents was the distance from the goal, and that difference was minimal. Both players threw their body at the ball to defend the goal.

Casey deliberately blocked the ball on the line with his arm. Souttar deliberately.......even McCann commented that he moved his arm to the ball......blocked the ball three yards out with his arm. 

Both were deliberate and intended to deny a goal. On that basis, why not both red cards?

Consistency does not exist in Scottish football.

 

 

[David]

3 hours ago, StAndrew7 said:

This is data for the last calendar year from Wyscout on our midfield.

Only midfielder we have playing more forward passes than Davor is Miller and he also has the most defensive successes as well as the best pass completion in a number of areas.

Don't be bringing actual data and stats into it! 

[wellfan]

Scottish refs are and forever will be useless. Collum will talk a good game this season in terms of accountability, but VAR will only continue to expose how useless our officials are, and his apologies won’t materially change anything. 

[joewarkfanclub]

5 hours ago, Onthefringes said:

Casey wasn’t sent off for denying a certain goal. Butland’s positioning counts for nothing when both offences deny a clear goalscoring opportunity… consistency is key.

Why was he sent off then?

It was the reason given on Sportsound after the game.....

[pretzel]

14 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Why was he sent off then?

It was the reason given on Sportsound after the game.....

Bobby Madden gave that reasoning on Instagram that it was because Butland was in a position where he could still make a save, but to me that’s a total cop-out as it looks like the shot is heading into the corner before being blocked by Souttar. It’s mad how you can go from one extreme to another.

Saturday was a great win for us, speaking of Madden it was refreshing to be on the end of some positive decisions for once in a St Mirren game as he seemed to be assigned to a ton of our matches in recent times where he gave them soft penalties (Mugabi fresh air swipe, Brophy running into Sol and McGrath diving but subsequently missing).

[Kmcalpin]

25 minutes ago, pretzel said:

Bobby Madden gave that reasoning on Instagram that it was because Butland was in a position where he could still make a save, but to me that’s a total cop-out as it looks like the shot is heading into the corner before being blocked by Souttar. It’s mad how you can go from one extreme to another.

Saturday was a great win for us, speaking of Madden it was refreshing to be on the end of some positive decisions for once in a St Mirren game as he seemed to be assigned to a ton of our matches in recent times where he gave them soft penalties (Mugabi fresh air swipe, Brophy running into Sol and McGrath diving but subsequently missing).

Butland's positioning is a red herring. The key issue is did the Hibs player have a clear opportunity to score - whether he actually would have or not, and whether Butland would have saved any attempt or not is irrelevant.

You can also add a red card at Paisley, when one of our defenders was hit in the face, not hand, by the ball. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

Just watched the Rangers highlights to see what the fuss is about and......that Hibs penalty is nothing like the one in our game. 

The Souttar one should be a penalty but I don't think it should even be a yellow card. 

Casey's was a flat up save! 🤣

[joewarkfanclub]

15 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Just watched the Rangers highlights to see what the fuss is about and......that Hibs penalty is nothing like the one in our game. 

The Souttar one should be a penalty but I don't think it should even be a yellow card. 

Casey's was a flat up save! 🤣

I dont think both incidents are the same as Souttar is further from goal and Butland is behind him,  but I do think you need to go back and watch Caseys again if you think that was a save.

Its a very similar motion to Souttar in that he throws himself in front of the ball to block it and his arms come up across his chest as a result. No question it hits his hand(s) but he hasnt exactly dived full length and tipped it round the post!

[Kmcalpin]

16 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I dont think both incidents are the same as Souttar is further from goal and Butland is behind him,  but I do think you need to go back and watch Caseys again if you think that was a save.

Its a very similar motion to Souttar in that he throws himself in front of the ball to block it and his arms come up across his chest as a result. No question it hits his hand(s) but he hasnt exactly dived full length and tipped it round the post!

Could a referee reasonably interpret Casey's handball as a genuine attempt to keep his hands in a natural position i.e. not spread his arms as wide as possible or avoid them being in an unnatural position?   

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

Could a referee reasonably interpret Casey's handball as a genuine attempt to keep his hands in a natural position i.e. not spread his arms as wide as possible or avoid them being in an unnatural position?   

Well, I accept I am totally biased.

But for me he looks like he tries to keep his arms close into his chest to avoid making himself bigger. Its not a natural position, but he certainly doesnt spread himself or appear to deliberately handle the ball.

I think thats why its important to know the reason given for the red card and the wording of the current IFAB guidance.

Context is everything in these decisions.

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Well, I accept I am totally biased.

But for me he looks like he tries to keep his arms close into his chest to avoid making himself bigger. Its not a natural position, but he certainly doesnt spread himself or appear to deliberately handle the ball.

I think thats why its important to know the reason given for the red card and the wording of the current IFAB guidance.

Context is everything in these decisions.

My thoughts exactly  

[SteelmaninOZ]

What a. Keeper we have 
 

 

[texanwellfan]

21 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

Sportscenes John Barnes tweeted that he thought Motherwell should appeal and that it didn't look like a deliberate handball. 

I thought I recalled that they added another match ban if you appealed and failed? If that’s the case I wouldn’t appeal but if it’s just a small sum of money I would appeal. I really think he tried to stop the ball with his body. I haven’t looked at any replays but my impression at the time was that he moved his hand into his body. So if he hadn’t drew his hand in the ball would have hit his body 

[weeyin]

I didn't think it was deliberate when I watched it in real time. Having see the replays a few times, I still think he instinctively stopped the ball with his hand.

I'd actually prefer a rule change for this situation, though, rather than rely on referees' (or VAR's) interpretation of intent.

If any player stops the ball crossing the line with their hand, it should count as a goal (like the penalty try in rugby). Even though it would have gone against us at the weekend, I don't think a definite goal prevented by a handball should be penalised by awarding what I believe these days is something like a 66% chance of scoring from the spot.

[joewarkfanclub]

6 minutes ago, weeyin said:

I didn't think it was deliberate when I watched it in real time. Having see the replays a few times, I still think he instinctively stopped the ball with his hand.

I'd actually prefer a rule change for this situation, though, rather than rely on referees' (or VAR's) interpretation of intent.

If any player stops the ball crossing the line with their hand, it should count as a goal (like the penalty try in rugby). Even though it would have gone against us at the weekend, I don't think a definite goal prevented by a handball should be penalised by awarding what I believe these days is something like a 66% chance of scoring from the spot.

You would then immediately get into the subjective opinion of the officials on whether they thought the ball would have crossed the line without the intervention of the handball.

In Caseys incident, Im not sure it would. It would probably have hit him in the chest and come back out.

[weeyin]

8 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

You would then immediately get into the subjective opinion of the officials on whether they thought the ball would have crossed the line without the intervention of the handball.

In Caseys incident, Im not sure it would. It would probably have hit him in the chest and come back out.

I think that's much easier than guessing whether a handball is intentional. Especially with VAR. A bit like the tracker they can use in cricket lbw appeals to see if the ball would hit the stumps.

[StAndrew7]

I thought that was just for certain cases; maybe serious foul play or something? I may be wrong, though. Can't be arsed going through the appeals process articles etc.

Edit: it might be at the panel's discretion if they add one or not; this article on Shinnie the other season says that: 

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12860527/aberdeen-unhappy-with-graeme-shinnie-s-extended-four-match-ban

Edit of edit:

Turns out I could be arsed and aye, it is:

11.9.34 The Tribunal may make the following Determinations:

(a) that the Claim is upheld and the sanction rescinded;

(b)that the Claim is upheld but that a lesser cautionable offence occurred and that the said lesser cautionable offence be recorded and the automatic sanction for that offence be applied;

(c) that the Claim is dismissed and the original sanction is reimposed;

(d) or that the Claim is dismissed, the original sanction is reimposed and, where the terms of Paragraph 11.9.37 are applicable, that an additional match suspension shall be applied. 

11.9.37 In the event of a Claim being dismissed the Tribunal must then Determine whether:
(a) the Claim was an abuse of process or a delaying tactic for the sanction originally imposed; or (b) the Claim was frivolous, vexatious or entirely without merit. 

So basically, it's up to the Tribunal to decide if it's wasting their time or not to appeal it, then they can decide to add an extra match. It's not necessarily automatic.

[texanwellfan]

I would see it as a serious request to reconsider the red card but would they? I haven’t seen a still picture of when the ball hits Casey but if his arm/hand is in against his body then I think we have a reasonable case for not enforcing any suspension. 

[MFCL84]

On 9/29/2024 at 1:05 PM, StAndrew7 said:

This is data for the last calendar year from Wyscout on our midfield.

Only midfielder we have playing more forward passes than Davor is Miller and he also has the most defensive successes as well as the best pass completion in a number of areas.

Interesting stats. They certainly don't reflect my perception of what Davor does for the team. Those stats would suggest that Davor is the most effective midfielder that we have. His pass accuracy is better than Miller's across the board. Maybe we should be asking big money for Davor.

Davor is decent at breaking up play and retaining possession by going sideways and back. It would be interesting to understand what constitutes a forward pass in this context. 

[Stuwell2]

1 hour ago, MFCL84 said:

 

Davor is decent at breaking up play and retaining possession by going sideways and back. 

There are many midfielders who have made a lucrative career - and been lauded by many a pundit and manager - out of predominantly playing sideways and backward passes.

Many of whom wouldn’t think of getting stuck in like Davor does. 

[texanwellfan]

Are we appealing Casey red card or not? 

[grizzlyg]

2 hours ago, texanwellfan said:

Are we appealing Casey red card or not? 

Waste of time and money to be honest pal in my opinion

[MFCL84]

On 9/30/2024 at 7:41 PM, Stuwell2 said:

There are many midfielders who have made a lucrative career - and been lauded by many a pundit and manager - out of predominantly playing sideways and backward passes

Indeed and Davor does not too bad a job. However, he seems to be being asked to take more of a creative role. A large proportion of the play through midfield seems to go through Davor. This is something that, in the current setup, Halliday should be doing.

[SteelmaninOZ]

On 9/29/2024 at 2:38 AM, Chanzeypopz said:

Another huge performance from Oxbrough 💪 What a season hes having 💛

Good enough for England?