Motherwell v Rangers League Cup Semi final Nov 2/3

[steelman1991]

16 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

I've only been to a handful of games over the past 3 seasons due to personal circumstances...I nearly went yesterday but didn't want anyone calling me a gloryhunter so I sat in the boozer instead

Glory Hunter 🤣

[andalg]

Just like to point out we're sitting joint fourth in the league and got knocked out in the semi final of the league cup by a team with probably 50 times our  budget.  Its not all bad 

[mfc88]

Not posted on here in a while but needed a bit of a vent.

Overriding feeling is total disappointment and disillusionment. Have seen us play at hampden several times now. Win and nothing else matters. Lose and I've come away with several emotions - annoyed with refs, individual errors, or in the case of the 2018 SC final, just that we lost to a better team. But yesterday was the first time I've come away thinking what is the f**king point.

Rangers didn't win that game, we lost it. Say what you like about budgets, this, that the next... valid if rangers play in a way that merits a final spot. Did they?? Continually use these excuses and we are there to make up the numbers, not compete.

Can't fault the players for effort, but instructions given to them and the way we set out to compete was pathetic.

Out of possession, we stood off and let them have the ball. Rangers are not operating as a good team just now, so we needed to get on top of them. Don't do that, and they still have good individual players who will eventually carve something out given time and space.

In possession there was no strategy for ball retention. It was almost always a lump up the park and hope something happens. Bread and butter for souttar and balogun, who dealt with it all day with absolutely nothing else to think about - I don't even remember us winning a header in their half and no one near our strikers to compete for the second ball or shut rangers down when they won it, and it just ended up coming back at us.

I wasn't best pleased with our approach first half, but somehow find ourselves 1 up, fans are on their back, they are low in confidence - all boxes ticked so far. Now, a 15 min break for a calm down, reset, recharge and we had 45 mins to simply not let certain individuals play, but it was more of the same and the managers strategy of riding our luck ran out.

I do like Kettlewell on the whole, but the way we set out was all wrong and once our luck ran out we needed a change in approach to win that game and it never happened. I can't help thinking had stephen robinson been in charge, the way he sets up to play the OF, we win yesterday.

Mentions for kaleta who was excellent and wilson who conducted himself admirably for a young lad playing out of position. Wilson has gone under the radar IMO with the hype around lennon, but hoping he continues to progress and apply himself the way he has been.

[joewarkfanclub]

2 hours ago, mfc88 said:

Not posted on here in a while but needed a bit of a vent.

Overriding feeling is total disappointment and disillusionment. Have seen us play at hampden several times now. Win and nothing else matters. Lose and I've come away with several emotions - annoyed with refs, individual errors, or in the case of the 2018 SC final, just that we lost to a better team. But yesterday was the first time I've come away thinking what is the f**king point.

Rangers didn't win that game, we lost it. Say what you like about budgets, this, that the next... valid if rangers play in a way that merits a final spot. Did they?? Continually use these excuses and we are there to make up the numbers, not compete.

Can't fault the players for effort, but instructions given to them and the way we set out to compete was pathetic.

Out of possession, we stood off and let them have the ball. Rangers are not operating as a good team just now, so we needed to get on top of them. Don't do that, and they still have good individual players who will eventually carve something out given time and space.

In possession there was no strategy for ball retention. It was almost always a lump up the park and hope something happens. Bread and butter for souttar and balogun, who dealt with it all day with absolutely nothing else to think about - I don't even remember us winning a header in their half and no one near our strikers to compete for the second ball or shut rangers down when they won it, and it just ended up coming back at us.

I wasn't best pleased with our approach first half, but somehow find ourselves 1 up, fans are on their back, they are low in confidence - all boxes ticked so far. Now, a 15 min break for a calm down, reset, recharge and we had 45 mins to simply not let certain individuals play, but it was more of the same and the managers strategy of riding our luck ran out.

I do like Kettlewell on the whole, but the way we set out was all wrong and once our luck ran out we needed a change in approach to win that game and it never happened. I can't help thinking had stephen robinson been in charge, the way he sets up to play the OF, we win yesterday.

Mentions for kaleta who was excellent and wilson who conducted himself admirably for a young lad playing out of position. Wilson has gone under the radar IMO with the hype around lennon, but hoping he continues to progress and apply himself the way he has been.

Good post.

I think the manager did get it tactically wrong yesterday.

He also got the subs wrong.

He would never admit that in public but hopefully he knows himself.

Very disappointing but not a sacking offence.

The reaction to the disappointment will be important.

[AllyMax]

Taken me till now to get over how fucking gutted I am at the result, and to a certain extent, the performance. Would certainly be the first to say that Ketts got the subs totally wrong. I think a lot of people would have liked to see us go toe to toe with them early, like we did against Celtic. First though, it has to be acknowledged that they simply have better players than us. You could probably take the income of their two top earners and float our entire club on it. FFS they lost the equivalent of more than three years of our turnover last year, and thats taking into account ther fact that their income is huge compared to ours. They just have the money (temporarily maybe 🙂 ) to have better players than us. Add to that the expanse of the pitch at Hampden and teams who try to match the Glasgow Arse Cheeks can easily come unstuck pretty quick. This is exactly the same reason that Rangers get pumped every time they play Celtic these days, cause they've got the pace and ability to tear them apart on a big pitch. 

I'm not saying the manager got it right, far from it, but a right into them, press high approach could have seen us turn into Aberdeen in their semi, so I can understand the approach to a certain extent. However, the subs were just bizarre.

It's basically just gutting, especially after getting our noses ahead with the first decent attack we had. 

[stv]

11 hours ago, steelboy said:

It was completely predictable that Callachan and Nicholson would be crocks. Paton is on his third significant injury since he arrived. McGinn is 34. The manager is to blame for wasting so much of our budget on these guys. 

As opposed to what. Finding ever fit, skilful younger players and injury free old heads within our budget.   Get real.
 Hes doing his best with a poxy budget . Taking a chance on players paying off sometime , sometimes not.   I would bet  St Brendon would struggle with our budget.    
  Is it down to injurys or bad management you decide. Seems to me he takes a while to learn from his mistakes as well.

[SteelmaninOZ]

Up the Well! 

[robsterwood]

14 hours ago, mfc88 said:

Not posted on here in a while but needed a bit of a vent.

Overriding feeling is total disappointment and disillusionment. Have seen us play at hampden several times now. Win and nothing else matters. Lose and I've come away with several emotions - annoyed with refs, individual errors, or in the case of the 2018 SC final, just that we lost to a better team. But yesterday was the first time I've come away thinking what is the f**king point.

Rangers didn't win that game, we lost it. Say what you like about budgets, this, that the next... valid if rangers play in a way that merits a final spot. Did they?? Continually use these excuses and we are there to make up the numbers, not compete.

Can't fault the players for effort, but instructions given to them and the way we set out to compete was pathetic.

Out of possession, we stood off and let them have the ball. Rangers are not operating as a good team just now, so we needed to get on top of them. Don't do that, and they still have good individual players who will eventually carve something out given time and space.

In possession there was no strategy for ball retention. It was almost always a lump up the park and hope something happens. Bread and butter for souttar and balogun, who dealt with it all day with absolutely nothing else to think about - I don't even remember us winning a header in their half and no one near our strikers to compete for the second ball or shut rangers down when they won it, and it just ended up coming back at us.

I wasn't best pleased with our approach first half, but somehow find ourselves 1 up, fans are on their back, they are low in confidence - all boxes ticked so far. Now, a 15 min break for a calm down, reset, recharge and we had 45 mins to simply not let certain individuals play, but it was more of the same and the managers strategy of riding our luck ran out.

I do like Kettlewell on the whole, but the way we set out was all wrong and once our luck ran out we needed a change in approach to win that game and it never happened. I can't help thinking had stephen robinson been in charge, the way he sets up to play the OF, we win yesterday.

Mentions for kaleta who was excellent and wilson who conducted himself admirably for a young lad playing out of position. Wilson has gone under the radar IMO with the hype around lennon, but hoping he continues to progress and apply himself the way he has been.

Budgets matter significantly. A higher ranked and higher budget generally wins statistics show it. One of Thier players was on bench and cost 6 mil. We rely on free transfers. Loans and budget buys. Speculate rather than buy known quality that they can afford. I do however think we could have got closer to them. Technique showed on the day also. 

[gaz7]

After lot of thoughts and reading a lot of opinions. I do feel that up to now in the season we have over achieved. Our defence is OK but without mcginn we have no defender to help out in attacking phases and this hurt us on Sunday.  Our midfield as most know is very poor and I don't recall 1 game this season where we have dominated. Strikers then have no ammunition but anytime moses is on he looks Our most dangerous and why he wasn't brought on Sunday is really a mystery. 

We are still in every game that we play apart from celtic other week so if we can somehow remedy midfield with our injured players returning or additions in jan then certainly we can have a gd season. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

On 11/4/2024 at 10:36 AM, Stuwell2 said:

Not going to bother reading all the comments from yesterday as I’ve no doubt most will be along the same lines as my view which is 

Given our injuries it was probably the correct line up. 
Given how poor Rangers have been sitting back was the wrong tactics. Was expecting us to try and run at their defence especially Tavenier, not punt long balls that the two central defenders lapped up leaving our forwards useless - totally pissed off. 
As usual with us when  we are involved in big games our youth and inexperienced squad don’t handle it well. 
Substitutions - WTF?

It will be anathema to most Motherwell supporters to give any praise to Rangers but I thought Rangers were actually pretty good off the ball.

Their press was good and they won every aerial duel.  

They made it difficult to get any flow going and they took Miller out the game.

On the ball they are still way below where you'd expect a team with Rangers resources to be but the ugly side of the game they did well.

However a lot of Motherwell fans simply won't accept that the oppositions performance had something to do with our performance.

 

[StAndrew7]

7 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

It will be anathema to most Motherwell supporters to give any praise to Rangers but I thought Rangers were actually pretty good off the ball.

Their press was good and they won every aerial duel.  

They made it difficult to get any flow going and they took Miller out the game.

On the ball they are still way below where you'd expect a team with Rangers resources to be but the ugly side of the game they did well.

However a lot of Motherwell fans simply won't accept that the oppositions performance had something to do with our performance.

 

I totally agree. I do think that's what is so frustrating about it; they were absolutely there for the taking and we stuck to a rigid counter-attacking style with a really ineffectual press on their defenders.

They definitely went up a gear in the second half. They took Miller out the game completely by sticking Barron on him at all times and doubling up when he was on the ball. That completely nullified our game plan because we had no other creative outlet, particularly after Kettlewell's mind-boggling double sub.

 

[mfc88]

4 hours ago, robsterwood said:

Budgets matter significantly. A higher ranked and higher budget generally wins statistics show it. One of Thier players was on bench and cost 6 mil. We rely on free transfers. Loans and budget buys. Speculate rather than buy known quality that they can afford. I do however think we could have got closer to them. Technique showed on the day also. 

Yeah teams budget is an important point in the big picture. But its not as black and white as that, and had we given a good account of ourselves, I'd accept that point.

But we didn't play in a way that made us test rangers as best we could to make them earn that game. That is our failing in my opinion, and we shouldn't use rangers' budget as an excuse for our failings, otherwise we we are beaten before a ball is kicked.

I can totally respect a different view of the game, but that is how I see it. As i said, other recent finals/ semis I've seen us lose out on (thinking of the 2 celtic games in 17/18 as the freshest in mind), I have left the stadium with a totally different feeling of disappointment... not with the feeling that we fell short tactically.
 

[robsterwood]

7 hours ago, mfc88 said:

Yeah teams budget is an important point in the big picture. But its not as black and white as that, and had we given a good account of ourselves, I'd accept that point.

But we didn't play in a way that made us test rangers as best we could to make them earn that game. That is our failing in my opinion, and we shouldn't use rangers' budget as an excuse for our failings, otherwise we we are beaten before a ball is kicked.

I can totally respect a different view of the game, but that is how I see it. As i said, other recent finals/ semis I've seen us lose out on (thinking of the 2 celtic games in 17/18 as the freshest in mind), I have left the stadium with a totally different feeling of disappointment... not with the feeling that we fell short tactically.
 

Agree. Your right we could have tested them more. Rather than let them have possession and space, we should have pressed them. Your right in that they didn't have to work hard for the win. Was very disappointed, knowing we can play better and should have set up differently.

[wellfan]

6 hours ago, mfc88 said:

and we shouldn't use rangers' budget as an excuse for our failings, otherwise we we are beaten before a ball is kicked.

Probably one of the most cogent points made in the aftermath of the game. A massive opportunity was wasted because of the predictably poor overall approach to the game and more crazy in-game decisions.

We weren’t well beaten. We didn’t put up a valiant fight. We weren’t robbed. Yes, they had to work and have a bigger budget, but anything is possible in a knockout game yet we more or less gifted them the win before a ball was kicked. It was so predictable. 

To get knocked out of a domestic cup competition in that fashion is absolutely scunnering and I refuse to accept that a loss such as that is acceptable just because Joe Bloggs highlights that we’re currently 5th in the league in Autumn or that the manager helped to develop some players last season.

The manager shat the bed, which we all seem to agree on, and the Club and fans deserve better when these opportunities come around. I’m sure that a manager without fear of the Old Firm and with a modicum of tactical nous about them would’ve produced a better showing against that Rangers team.

Back to league business now, which is quite good at the moment, so let’s see how my favourite donkey does for the rest of the season. 

[santheman]

2 minutes ago, wellfan said:

 

We weren’t well beaten. We didn’t put up a valiant fight. We weren’t robbed. Yes, they had to work and have a bigger budget, but anything is possible in a knockout game yet we more or less gifted them the win before a ball was kicked. It was so predictable. 

 

 

Not sure I'm getting your take on that.

How did we gift them the win before a ball was kicked?

Not having a go just interested in your thought process.

 

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

Not sure I'm getting your take on that.

How did we gift them the win before a ball was kicked?

Not having a go just interested in your thought process.

It’s probably already been done to a death by me and others, but simply our game plan was shit and one that generally always plays into the hands of the bigger/better team. And it didn’t have to be that way because that Rangers team are on the ropes these days, but we allowed them to dominate the game with our negative standoffish approach.

We didn’t play to exploit our strengths; instead, we played to contain them and to feed off scraps. It obviously backfired because they eventually wore us down, which we could all see was coming, particularly after the baffling substitutions and tactical changes were implemented.

It’s done now, though. Time to move on and hope that lessons have been learned. Again. 

[santheman]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

It’s probably already been done to a death by me and others, but simply our game plan was shit and one that generally always plays into the hands of the bigger/better team. And it didn’t have to be that way because that Rangers team are on the ropes these days, but we allowed them to dominate the game with our negative standoffish approach.

We didn’t play to exploit our strengths; instead, we played to contain them and to feed off scraps. It obviously backfired because they eventually wore us down, which we could all see was coming, particularly after the baffling substitutions and tactical changes were implemented.

It’s done now, though. Time to move on and hope that lessons have been learned. Again. 

Interesting

Our game plan certainly fell apart during the match but still don't get why you think we gifted them the win before a ball was kicked.

Anyway as you say all in the past and Saturday is another day.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

https://spfl.co.uk/news/spfl-statement-celtic-motherwell-and-rangers

[Kmcalpin]

I totally get this and we can't say that we weren't warned. However, presumably it would have been perfectly ok to set off pyrotechnics outside the stadium? If the SPFL is going down the road of strict liability, then what about other common offences inside stadia, for example sectarian chanting? 

[Spiderpig]

23 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I totally get this and we can't say that we weren't warned. However, presumably it would have been perfectly ok to set off pyrotechnics outside the stadium? If the SPFL is going down the road of strict liability, then what about other common offences inside stadia, for example sectarian chanting? 

You know that won't happen Dave, there is no chance that either of the ugly sisters will ever be served notices of complaints from the SPFL, SFA or any other footballing authority in Scotland for the bigoted bile they spout at every game.

It would not surprise me at all if Motherwell were the only club fined as none lkes to upset the uglies.

[santheman]

H34 Each Club must ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable.

 

So what more can clubs do that is "reasonably practicable".

The stewards instructed to carry out body cavity searches on every fan instead of the usual frisk and pat down?

Are the security company providing the stewards not as culpable as the clubs?

All clubs can reasonably be expected to do is appeal to fans not to do it and potentially ban any caught doing so.

If we get fined and/or sanctioned in any way I hope the club tells us exactly what they are and the consequences for the club and hopefully that might get through to the perpetrators.

Personally I don't have a problem with pyro but when it gets to this stage then I  think the ones doing it need to take a wee step back and think about whether its worth it in light of the potential backlash and costs.

[Kmcalpin]

22 minutes ago, santheman said:

H34 Each Club must ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable.

So what more can clubs do that is "reasonably practicable".

The stewards instructed to carry out body cavity searches on every fan instead of the usual frisk and pat down?

Are the security company providing the stewards not as culpable as the clubs?

All clubs can reasonably be expected to do is appeal to fans not to do it and potentially ban any caught doing so.

If we get fined and/or sanctioned in any way I hope the club tells us exactly what they are and the consequences for the club and hopefully that might get through to the perpetrators.

Personally I don't have a problem with pyro but when it gets to this stage then I  think the ones doing it need to take a wee step back and think about whether its worth it in light of the potential backlash and costs.

Great post. Can I ask which organisation employed the stewards?

If MFC had reasonably said to the SPFL, "In addition to your stewarding, can we also employ our own stewards as a second line of defence (as we could be held liable)", what would the response have been?

[santheman]

4 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Great post. Can I ask which organisation employed the stewards?

If MFC had reasonably said to the SPFL, "In addition to your stewarding, can we also employ our own stewards as a second line of defence (as we could be held liable)", what would the response have been?

I'm assuming that it would either have been the SPFL as the tournament organisers or the SFA as the stadium landlords who employed the security company who provide the stewards so you could argue that they are as culpable as the clubs.

Not sure what company was used but can't be that many in Scotland.

[Spiderpig]

41 minutes ago, santheman said:

 

Personally I don't have a problem with pyro but when it gets to this stage then I  think the ones doing it need to take a wee step back and think about whether its worth it in light of the potential backlash and costs.

Potential backlash, someone is going to get seriously injured with the use of these pyros, there's no grey area here, it's against the rules of the football authorities and against the law of the land, so the club has no complaints.

How many fines or sanctions does the club need to get before action is taken against those responsible.

[MJC]

No complaints over this but it’s the club that stand to suffer as a result of the actions of a selfish minority of louts.
 

If we are fined the ‘Block E’ mob should be made to club together and pay it.