To Move or Not to Move?

[Kmcalpin]

I've just been reading Stephen Cameron's thoughts on a potential move away from Fir Park, on Pie and Bovril. Its not a simple decision and he has produced an excellent presentation on the pros and the cons. It must have taken him a considerable amount of time and effort.  Well done Stephen. if anyone hasn't seen it, then I would recommend that they do so. 

Doing nothing, Asquith style, is not an option and the club cannot afford to kick the can down the road. There are no easy answers, but decisions will have to be taken and soon.    

 

[Mintymac]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

I've just been reading Stephen Cameron's thoughts on a potential move away from Fir Park, on Pie and Bovril. Its not a simple decision and he has produced an excellent presentation on the pros and the cons. It must have taken him a considerable amount of time and effort.  Well done Stephen. if anyone hasn't seen it, then I would recommend that they do so. 

Doing nothing, Asquith style, is not an option and the club cannot afford to kick the can down the road. There are no easy answers, but decisions will have to be taken and soon.    

 

Not happening . 
I asked CEO this very direct question at the meet the manager /ceo night . The response from CEO was

1. No medium or long term plans to move

2. Cost prohibitive and sale of ground would be fraction of what we need ,unlike St Mirren who got good money for prime site commercial land .

Was fairly short response but certainly he put any idea of moving to bed 

[Throughthelaces]

Not to move. We have a really interesting ground I like for park it’s definitely got some character to it. I’d rather be at fir park than anything resembling airdrie or st mittens ground which is what we’d end up with if we did move

[StirlingDosser]

Putting an economics and business hat on a move is a no brainer.

That said I'd rather a medium term programme of replacing the POD stand and Hunter stand with something similar to the Cooper, which would make Fir Park a very tight, enclosed and tidy wee ground. In relation to the Phil Odonnell stand, that is probably something both achievable and pretty necessary in the short term. The Hunter stand less important but still a well designed structure would give the club more space to play with for covered player/corporate facilities. 

 

Here is a mock up I done a few years back...

 

 

[well_said]

1 hour ago, StirlingDosser said:

Putting an economics and business hat on a move is a no brainer.

That said I'd rather a medium term programme of replacing the POD stand and Hunter stand with something similar to the Cooper, which would make Fir Park a very tight, enclosed and tidy wee ground. In relation to the Phil Odonnell stand, that is probably something both achievable and pretty necessary in the short term. The Hunter stand less important but still a well designed structure would give the club more space to play with for covered player/corporate facilities. 

 

Here is a mock up I done a few years back...

 

 

That looks superb, but even better to cut the south stand to one level to make the heights the same . It also cuts the number of old firm fans in the ground . Win win I think. To recover the shortfall charge them what they charge their own fans for champions League matches.

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, StirlingDosser said:

Putting an economics and business hat on a move is a no brainer.

That said I'd rather a medium term programme of replacing the POD stand and Hunter stand with something similar to the Cooper, which would make Fir Park a very tight, enclosed and tidy wee ground. In relation to the Phil Odonnell stand, that is probably something both achievable and pretty necessary in the short term. The Hunter stand less important but still a well designed structure would give the club more space to play with for covered player/corporate facilities. 

 

Here is a mock up I done a few years back...

 

 

Replacing the east and main stands would be my preference and this is an excellent mock-up. My only point would be that we don't own the land to the south of the main stand, so any replacement would have to be another part-width stand. See the planning boundary here: https://eplanning.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=map&keyVal=9901102FUL

[StAndrew7]

6 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Replacing the east and main stands would be my preference and this is an excellent mock-up. My only point would be that we don't own the land to the south of the main stand, so any replacement would have to be another part-width stand. See the planning boundary here: https://eplanning.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=map&keyVal=9901102FUL

Aye, I was about to make this point.

Also, as Stephen's document points out (as do others above), this kind of project would wreak havoc on the local community and the Club:

• Knowetop would more than likely lose its car park due to both the demolition and construction work,
• The astro would more than likely end up as the contractor's compound, removing its use for years,
• Traffic etc. towards Our Lady's would increase, as would noise for the neighbours on that side,
• Access to Fir Park Street and the School would be restricted, as would residents' access and parking

I could go on, but aye, it's not a small undertaking. Definitely needs serious thought and appreciation of what it means (along with significant engagement with the local community and residents) prior to anything going ahead. Now, you need to include consultation events as part of significant works like this but they're normally limited to one or two evenings. I think if it does go down this route, the Club will need to go above and beyond that for hearts and minds purposes etc.

[StirlingDosser]

1 hour ago, well_said said:

That looks superb, but even better to cut the south stand to one level to make the heights the same . It also cuts the number of old firm fans in the ground . Win win I think. To recover the shortfall charge them what they charge their own fans for champions League matches.

Thanks, I can only take credit for the hunter and odonnell stands in the mockup. I have made a few others over the years. I think if the footprint was correct it could potentially fit. As it is anyway I am sure MFC own the houses which are in the way of a full length stand.

[StAndrew7]

1 minute ago, StirlingDosser said:

As it is anyway I am sure MFC own the houses which are in the way of a full length stand.

I think it was spoken about at one point (or maybe even they did), but I don't think they do. It was sold in April 2021 for £215,000 and prior to that in 2002.

[wellfan]

30 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

Aye, I was about to make this point.

Also, as Stephen's document points out (as do others above), this kind of project would wreak havoc on the local community and the Club:

• Knowetop would more than likely lose its car park due to both the demolition and construction work,
• The astro would more than likely end up as the contractor's compound, removing its use for years,
• Traffic etc. towards Our Lady's would increase, as would noise for the neighbours on that side,
• Access to Fir Park Street and the School would be restricted, as would residents' access and parking

I could go on, but aye, it's not a small undertaking. Definitely needs serious thought and appreciation of what it means (along with significant engagement with the local community and residents) prior to anything going ahead. Now, you need to include consultation events as part of significant works like this but they're normally limited to one or two evenings. I think if it does go down this route, the Club will need to go above and beyond that for hearts and minds purposes etc.

You're right about the potential havoc - although most significant developments piss people and organisations off - but these issues aren't insurmountable if the proposal is properly consulted on and the right application for planning permission submitted. In simple planning terms, any application of this type would be one that is considered in the context of local physical and visual impacts vs economic and community benefits. The benefits of the latter would have to materially outweigh the disbenefits of the former. I'm a planner. If the Club or WS want any guidance on this, they can have my time in return for a couple of free match day pints and pies. 

I've also just read Stephen's document on P&B. Hats off to him for taking the time to put it together. 

[StAndrew7]

2 minutes ago, wellfan said:

You're right about the potential havoc - although most significant developments piss people and organisations off - but these issues aren't insurmountable if the proposal is properly consulted on and the right application for planning permission submitted. In simple planning terms, any application of this type would be one that is considered in the context of local physical and visual impacts vs economic and community benefits. The benefits of the latter would have to materially outweigh the disbenefits of the former. I'm a planner. If the Club or WS want any guidance on this, they can have my time in return for a couple of free match day pints and pies. 

I've also just read Stephen's document on P&B. Hats off to him for taking the time to put it together. 

Aye, I work in construction consulting/design so totally appreciate all the nuances, too. Very much in the heavier side of industry, rather than fitba stadiums though.

[wellfan]

2 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

Aye, I work in construction consulting/design so totally appreciate all the nuances, too. Very much in the heavier side of industry, rather than fitba stadiums though.

Heavy industry 🤝 Fitba stadiums

I can see you drawing up your concept designs for the following:

The Ravenscraig Excelsior

Bamrack Park

The JDs (Steelworks) Stadium

Bob Park Park

The Riku Danzakibowl

Lunchtime is over. I should get back to work. 

[weeyin]

Given the outcry over the 5G mast, I confidently predict I won't see a St John Stadium, Pettigrew Park or Philliben Field in my lifetime.

[joewarkfanclub]

3 hours ago, wellfan said:

Replacing the east and main stands would be my preference and this is an excellent mock-up. My only point would be that we don't own the land to the south of the main stand, so any replacement would have to be another part-width stand. See the planning boundary here: https://eplanning.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=map&keyVal=9901102FUL

Aye, thats always gonna be a problem.

However, with advances in engineering, surely we can build something along the lines of what Hibs have done at Easter Road with their stands behind the goals.

It would look better aesthetically and remove some of the issues with "sightlines" that currently exist?

[grizzlyg]

Yep this is a tricky one and one I have had good debate over recent years.  I feel moving to ravenscraig has no infrastructure or transport links plus a feckin long walk for my post match pint 🤪🤪

For me if we could redevelop the hunter and POD stand it would be perfect but I ain't an architect,  financial administrator and comedy are my strong points.......well one of them at least.....i know hee haw about finance....🤪🤪🤪🤪

[Yoshi-1991]

23 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

It has crap transport links. I don't drive and when I was a member of nl leisure that was a sports centre I used very occasionally. There's a bus that goes to it I believe but only at night 

I have always imagined that a move to Ravenscraig would encourage local bus companies to run a shuttle service from the town centre/ train stations on match days.  

[Kmcalpin]

As housing and other land uses are opened up and developed in Ravenscraig, public transport services will follow.

[Kmcalpin]

Yes  I do. I've seen it many times before in large scale new developments and new towns. 

[Kmcalpin]

2 minutes ago, wellgirl said:

But at the moment Ravenscraig isn't being developed. Not the way it was supposed to be in the beginning. Id rather stay where we are tbh

More housing and less retail I believe. Situation is fluid though and depends on market conditions. 

[0Neils40yarder]

The thought of moving to Ravenscraig gives me the heeby jeebies

[Cameron_Mcd]

To be perfectly honest I'm not bothered if we stay or leave Fir Park, however if it's just really the Main Stand causing the issues then would it not make more sense to just knock that down and restart rather than build an entire new stadium in an area with no proper transport, I'm not not sure of the logistics right enough. I suspect the money spent on the East Stand and the pitch over the last few years means we're not moving away from FP any time soon.

[Kmcalpin]

I get the arguments both for and against moving our tradional home  but Ravenscraig is not that far away. Its not as if we'd be moving to Shotts, Carluke or even Newmains. The Motherwell area is changing and evolving and we need to accept that. The Motherwell area of 1900 was very very different to the area today, which will be very different to the area of 2100. We can't stop change and fossilise the area. Sorry I digress. 

[joewarkfanclub]

Vietnam 91's post on P&B provides a very informative document on the pro's and cons of both scenarios.

Remaining at Fir Park and redeveloping the POD is the lowest cost/risk scenario.

But if we are serious about building a club for the future then we need to move.

The problem with that scenario is that it is expensive and needs so much good will to make it happen.

However, if done properly and it includes retail, conferencing, hotel and other revenue generating avenues, it could actually move us substantially as a club.

However, it would need done correctly and there would be a lot of ducks to line up as Dundee have found.

 

[stv]

6 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Vietnam 91's post on P&B provides a very informative document on the pro's and cons of both scenarios.

Remaining at Fir Park and redeveloping the POD is the lowest cost/risk scenario.

But if we are serious about building a club for the future then we need to move.

The problem with that scenario is that it is expensive and needs so much good will to make it happen.

However, if done properly and it includes retail, conferencing, hotel and other revenue generating avenues, it could actually move us substantially as a club.

However, it would need done correctly and there would be a lot of ducks to line up as Dundee have found.

 

Retail , conferincing , revenue generating avenues ? Gone are the days when our ground was worth any major money.  We are a wee football club in a generally poor area right next door to Scotlands biggest supported and bigoted clubs. I admire the ambition but we need to be realistic i think. Stay at Fir Park and concentrate on being a football team.

[joewarkfanclub]

2 minutes ago, stv said:

Retail , conferincing , revenue generating avenues ? Gone are the days when our ground was worth any major money.  We are a wee football club in a generally poor area right next door to Scotlands biggest supported and bigoted clubs. I admire the ambition but we need to be realistic i think. Stay at Fir Park and concentrate on being a football team.

I didnt say I was for or against.

I just pointed out that there was a decent document showing the pros and cons of both sides.

I found it quite interesting.