Jay Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 I know that some will say, teams will be even more scared, but I dont think they will. Teams have to play to win, with at least 1 team being relegated and 2 going into a Playoff. I don't even know why you'd think that. Scottish football is about self-preservation and avoiding the worst case scenarios. That's exactly why we have the moves to make a 10 team SPL in the first place. I genuinely cannot even begin to understand how you could think teams would have to play to win in a 10 team SPL. Surely even the most open-minded fan regarding the league restructuring (I'm yet to find someone who actually supports a 10 team SPL!) could see that in a league where relegation is more likely, teams will set out not to lose!? <_> I don't even see how there can be any debate about it to be honest. At the moment teams try not to lose ahead of winning most of the time, taking two teams out of the league isn't going to change that for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilian Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 More meaningful games! With 10 teams in one league, virtually every game is important, where as in 1 14 team league, everyone sinmply has to concentrate on the Old Firm as usual, or does anyone think that Sky will show Dunfermline vs Ross County for example? I know that some will say, teams will be even more scared, but I dont think they will. Teams have to play to win, with at least 1 team being relegated and 2 going into a Playoff. I also like the idea of the pyramid system! fans that pay into games don't give a fuck about SKYs coverage when will the lunatics get that? fans put more than double the cash into the game than SKY have offered in principal for the new system fans that have now getting shafted repeatedly season in season out, we've kept paying more and more to keep the clubs going and the reward is........? Well done the SPL and all the bastards in charge, you will kill the game as a spectator sport and not even be any better off on doing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotts Well Fan Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 More meaningful games! With 10 teams in one league, virtually every game is important, where as in 1 14 team league, everyone sinmply has to concentrate on the Old Firm as usual, or does anyone think that Sky will show Dunfermline vs Ross County for example? I know that some will say, teams will be even more scared, but I dont think they will. Teams have to play to win, with at least 1 team being relegated and 2 going into a Playoff. I also like the idea of the pyramid system! But this does not answer my question why if it did not work before will it work now? Everyone from TV/Fans/Managers/players and chairmen all said at the time change was needed because it was not working. What's new? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 It's easier to get a TV deal when you have fans than to get a TV deal when you have no fans but the people that run or game are so short sighted they can't see past the next deal to the one after it. This arrangement will last until the end of the TV deal they have obviously got lined up at which it will be too late not to change. By that time it will be change or die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Again not sure if this is being proposed. but Relegation playoffs are fucking daft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 See I don't see why every game matters is an argument from 12 to 10: At the split (i.e. with five games to go last season) St Johnstone were the only team with nothing to play for. The season before Motherwell were the only team with nothing to play for And I don't give a damn what size the league is the last day is never going to be meaningful for everyone. Therefore I have always argued that 12 is just about right. Throw in a play off system into the 12 team league and you create more positivity as right now finishing 11th guarantees you safety, make 10th a risky position do you think St Mirren would be as happy with a draw at Fir Park as they appeared to be back in September? Probably not (I know they made an arse of it and lost anyway but you know what I mean). I think that the chairmen have been bought by the perceived benefits of some of the other changes that are coming from this. More stability in lower league finances - good thing, earlier start which means better TV slots (e.g. Sunday 3pm rather than noon for a while) - good thing, winter break - good thing. All these things are likely (and has been statistically proven from other countries) to improve crowds. They also reckon that by having football on when England doesn't throughout July and much of August would increase the price they could command - good thing. Since Switzerland moved to playing earlier in the season their teams have performed better in Europe and improved their coefficient - good thing. What they have failed to see is that all these good things are masked behind the headline grabbing size of league argument. And there is such a significant groundswell of opinion that ten is not right they are going to alienate fans and some folk's opinions on this are so strong that all the good things above won't matter as they aint going to turn up on a point of principle. For me 12 with some tweaks would be my preference, the 14 campaign in the Record seems to be pretty workable too though I think it could cause some difficulty with season ticket pricing policies as I don't think an extra game with the Old Firm is compensation for having two games less than I paid for but that could be worked round. But in reality I don't give a shit about the number of teams in the league its all the other things that are more important. But that doesn't seem to be the case for most fans so they need to take heed. All that said people who are saying that teams are voting for greed may be right. But I think there are some clubs out there who based on their current financial plight could be voting for survival. And we may well be one of them based on the number of players leaving unreplaced in recent weeks. Whilst three years ago we would probably have never made the decisions we are today I think circumstance could be backing the club into a corner. However this is far from a signed deal and I think there will be noise to come for quite a while yet from the fans of many if not all clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 The Top 10 worked in it's first 10 years quite spectacularly with Aberdeen and Dundee United both winning titles and Hearts losing out only on goal difference and with both Dundee United and Aberdeen getting to European Finals everything in the garden looked rosy. The football in the top flight was good because relegation wasn't the disaster it is now. There wasn't a TV deal as such and most clubs still relied on the paying punter. If clubs like Hearts, Hibs and Dundee went down it was a chance to rebuild and take their large support to the likes of Stirling, Montrose, and Arbroath. This also helped out those clubs so there was a drip of extra cash going into the lower leagues. Then SKY came along and bought the rights to the Premier League, it was a cracking deal and originally I believe some of the money did find it's way to the lower leagues, however with Rangers paying silly money to recruit English internationals in their ill fated attempt to win the European Cup and celtic struggling along on five bob a week the OF soon lobbied for more dough. Then came Bosman, and with that the Top 10 decided to cut itself off from the rest of Scottish Football and keep all the cash. Now it's more about not losing the TV money than it is about winning matches. That's whwere we are, that's why it worked in the past and it doesn't work now. There is no room to breathe, no room to build, and develop a team. We dont have a pyramid structure in Scotland, we have a revolvong door with the same half dozen rteams popping in and out and bringing nothing but boredom. We will never get a team coming into the top division with the attitude of Blackpool arriving in the Premiership, because our league is too tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainbus Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 They keep shafting us and most of us keep going. If enough folk are genuinely hacked off then get a boycott going. They don't care about us so stuff the lot of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 I'm glad so many are opposed to this idea. Talk is all very well and good but we need to do something. A boycott/protest outside Fir Park would be a start..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 I'm glad so many are opposed to this idea. Talk is all very well and good but we need to do something. A boycott/protest outside Fir Park would be a start..... I'm game for that. It's either a case of boycotting a one off game this season, or the vast majority of games in seasons to come. It's actually absolutely ridiculous the way Scottish football fans are being completely fucked here. But the majority will bend over and take it because apparently that's what being a football supporter entails these days. And, the worst part is, the clubs know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosser1886 Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 That's the spirit, boycott your local team who a pretty much fucked financially as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swello Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 My honest opinion is that people/supportes will accept the change. 3000 Suporters will def come to Fir Park, I am pretty sure. Hardcore Fans will still go, so will Seasonticket holders. Its ok to be "againat change", its typical for people to be against change, but we will adapt. Not getting at you for your opinion, but the part in bold perfectly sums up the attitude of the people in charge of the clubs over the years. By taking the hardcore support for granted over a prolonged period, they have in fact pissed-off increasing numbers of these types of supporter by raising prices, moving kick-off times to suit TV, etc, etc. By a twin strategy of trying to mimic/keep pace with England and prioritising the wishes of the TV companies over the interests of the biggest financial contributors - they have actually managed the feat of turning many of the most loyal fans away by treating them with disdain (we've not exactly been quiet about the things we don't like). Once the core people start to pick and choose games in preference to season tickets and the ratio of money provided by supporters drops closer to the amount supplied by broadcasters, that's when the financial armageddon that we're always hearing about will happen. 20 years ago, you might have said "5000 people will always come", a decade ago you would have said "4000 people will always come" - the fact that it's now down to "3000 people will always come" is fucking scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 That's the spirit, boycott your local team who a pretty much fucked financially as it is. How's it feel being bent over that table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 20 years ago, you might have said "5000 people will always come", a decade ago you would have said "4000 people will always come" - the fact that it's now down to "3000 people will always come" is fucking scary. And even then, I think you need to be extremely optimistic to think 3,000 will always come to Fir Park if this 10 team SPL comes into play. This is unlike anything else. The strength of feeling amongst Scottish football fans is huge and is spread right across every club. It's actually quite mental just how many folk have made it clear they won't be back at their respective clubs if these changes happen. Now, some of them will be full of shit. But I have no reason to believe that the majority are - especially 'Well fans. We actually spent a large chunk of the Inverness game on Saturday discussing which junior teams each of us will be supporting if the 10 team league comes into play. Nah, claiming that everything will be fine attendance-wise in a 10 team SPL is incredibly naive and anyone thinking along those lines is in for a nasty shock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Not getting at you for your opinion, but the part in bold perfectly sums up the attitude of the people in charge of the clubs over the years. By taking the hardcore support for granted over a prolonged period, they have in fact pissed-off increasing numbers of these types of supporter by raising prices, moving kick-off times to suit TV, etc, etc. By a twin strategy of trying to mimic/keep pace with England and prioritising the wishes of the TV companies over the interests of the biggest financial contributors - they have actually managed the feat of turning many of the most loyal fans away by treating them with disdain (we've not exactly been quiet about the things we don't like). Once the core people start to pick and choose games in preference to season tickets and the ratio of money provided by supporters drops closer to the amount supplied by broadcasters, that's when the financial armageddon that we're always hearing about will happen. 20 years ago, you might have said "5000 people will always come", a decade ago you would have said "4000 people will always come" - the fact that it's now down to "3000 people will always come" is fucking scary. You saved me posting because you are spot on and I couldn't put it better myself especially your final point. I remember the last 10 team league and there was loads of meaningless games at the end of the season and to suggest otherwise is pish and selective memory. It doesn't matter what size the league is you will always get mid table teams with not much to play for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dosser1886 Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Love all this burst ba, game over, no going back, I'm oot shite. It's Sky's fault, it's the clubs fault, it's the SFA's fault etc. To a major extent well yes. Sky provide a consumer product that a vast majority of the people in the UK buy into, people want to see three games on a Saturday or Sunday or pretty much games any day of the week. They only provide that because we as consumers want this. And it's all just fine we have some dosh and can sign some decent players until - wait a fucking minute we've sold our soul to the devil and can't get out of it. We rely on the money now but the guys in charge decide that they can get more money now Sky tell them to fuck off and the clubs are left scrambling around trying to get someone FFS anyone to pick up the slack nobody wants it and blah, blah yeah I know we all know the rest. Basically there is no money the football is shite they can't keep gate prices down and we all just moan like fuck Now because so many fat arsed lazy bastard decide that they've spend enough on their Sky sports subscriptions they really can't be arsed going to the games, even the games that their own team are involved in being played live 5 - 10 minutes up the road and guess what the gates go down, not as much money goes into football, we can't buy players of a decent standard and rely on loan deals and selling players and Sky don't want to broadcast it anymore because it's pretty shit really as there are crap crowds and atmospheres at most of the games apart from the 4 old firm games and now that is the only games that they really wanted anyway. Tell you what we are all to fuckin blame and we all need to do our bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivute Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 As pointed out above, the current 12 team set up while far from perfect has in the last few seasons kept most teams with something to play for into the later stages of the season. I don't see what the 10 team set up offers that the current set up doesn't. You could easily start the season earlier, have a play off and a couple of weeks break in the winter to try and imprpove things slightly. That's not to say i wouldn't prefer 16 teams but I just can't see how the 10 team league set up is an improvement on status quo. When everyone agreed that change was needed at the end of last season - the complaint was the product on the park and the review of the league set up should have been with that in mind not with the primary concern of how to make the teams more money. Levein saying the 10 team league will improve the national team by being better for youngsters - well i find that baffling. He who pays the piper calls the tune eh Craig! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Tell you what we are all to fuckin blame and we all need to do our bit. Why am I to blame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellfan1984 Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Levein saying the 10 team league will improve the national team by being better for youngsters - will i find that baffling. He who pays the piper calls the tune eh Craig! Sadly that is just more proof that Levein is a speccy fucker that should be nowhere near the national team but that is for another thread.... Fucking gutted tbh. The fact that at it's height you had 6 clubs (including our own and St Mirren - both on the Strategy Committee thingy mabob) against the whole ten team pish, we now have at the most, only one club against it - if any at all. How the fuck did that happen? What's worse, when it was 10/10 we were not going to make more money, just those in the lower league would (to be named the Championship [sic]) but now I can't see us making the same amount. How the fuck can they say we're going to make more money when we have to share with 21 clubs rather than 11. I would love to see the working outs that they have done. Gutted though, gutted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Why am I to blame? And me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Sadly that is just more proof that Levein is a speccy fucker that should be nowhere near the national team but that is for another thread.... Fucking gutted tbh. The fact that at it's height you had 6 clubs (including our own and St Mirren - both on the Strategy Committee thingy mabob) against the whole ten team pish, we now have at the most, only one club against it - if any at all. How the fuck did that happen? What's worse, when it was 10/10 we were not going to make more money, just those in the lower league would (to be named the Championship [sic]) but now I can't see us making the same amount. How the fuck can they say we're going to make more money when we have to share with 21 clubs rather than 11. I would love to see the working outs that they have done. Gutted though, gutted. One thing they will make more money on is that the 12 team championship league will have 44 league games. I am not saying I am for it just one of the reasons Doncaster gave for moving from a 10 team second tier to a 12 team one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivute Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 44 league games plus play offs, more money aye - but were they not struggling to get the smaller fixture list finished on time last season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellfan1984 Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 44 league games plus play offs, more money aye - but were they not struggling to get the smaller fixture list finished on time last season And again this season. Where does the money come from for the clubs that won't be in Playoffs or the Championship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 44 league games plus play offs, more money aye - but were they not struggling to get the smaller fixture list finished on time last season That question was asked but he said the season would start in July. Obviously like the championship in England there will be more midweek games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 44 league games plus play offs, more money aye - but were they not struggling to get the smaller fixture list finished on time last season A 44 game "Championship" is a ridiculous suggestion. Can you imagine the chaos if we have another winter like we've just had?! Not to mention how fans of Queen of the South, Ross County, Partick Thistle etc are now going to have to fork out for more matches if they want to see their team play (I don't for a second believe prices will drop, if anything they'll increase - especially season tickets given there's more home games to be had). And, as has already been pointed out, the whole "Championship" (and "Premiership") chat is fucking cringe-worthy. It's actually laughable when you step back and look at the whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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