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1 hour ago, gaz7 said:

Great Post Dennyc and your point on odonnell is my view also.  For other poster to say dropped because he was shit is actually laughable and whilst yes he had poor games he was and is still the best full back in squad and Alexander definitely had a fall out with him. This did happen .

Odonnell is from our area and I'm sure there are some on here that know him or his family or friends and this is why it's easy to confirm. 

 

how many mistakes did sod have to make before being dropped? I thought GA kept faith with him for a while before leaving him out...i am not a GA fan and glad he has gone ,but i doubt he left thes players out due to "spite" i wish him well tho

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1 hour ago, David said:

The thing is, if you go back and read the posts from January to March you'll see that I was fully supportive of O'Donnell. I wouldn't have dropped him, but the manager dropped him because he looked to suffer a dip in form, which cannot be argued against.

I don't think Mugabi is better than him at right-back, and believe O'Donnell was our best option there last season, but there's a lot of fans who didn't think that. They were screaming for O'Donnell to get punted. 

The point I'm making is that now, looking back, there's fans changing the narrative retrospectively because they want to shoehorn in the notion that he had a falling out with the manager, and that it's Alexander's fault. When in reality they were glad to see O'Donnell benched.

And I'm not saying that there wasn't tension between O'Donnell and Alexander. There should be, considering O'Donnell wants to play and the manager had dropped him. But let's not kid on that O'Donnell was dropped because he challenged Alexander, which is what some folk are saying. He was dropped because he didn't play well last season, which is the reason Alexander brought in McGinn to replace him.

 

I suppose it's really how you view it.

For me most of the fans that wanted SOD dropped never wanted him at the Club in the first place. I'm not going to trawl back but the comments when he signed were out of order. Some even held his supposed liking of Celtic against him. So when he had a dip in form it just played into their narrative. When he had a decent game those fans were noticeably quiet. His winner in Europe some time back as a classic example. So his form was not their main motivation, even when it was poor. When he had a decent game for Scotland those same fans also used that against him.

I think we agree he was probably our best right back whether he was playing or not. We were certainly both supportive of him and thought some of the comments against him were OTT. Where we differ seems to be when it comes to Alexander's part in things. Even when Mugabi was really struggling and becoming a liability out wide, Alexander insisted on sticking with him in that position. Not only on a game by game basis, but also during games when Mugabi was almost pleading to be replaced. And O'Donnell was on the Bench, fit and unused.  When Alexander eventually decided to change things, he ignored SOD and even turned to O'Hara in one game.

So, if O'Donnell was injured why was he on the Bench? If he was not injured why was he ignored when everybody could see Mugabi was struggling. If Alexander did not rate O'Donnell why pick him in the first place, even on the Bench. The logical answer I can come up with was that it was personal between the two. Otherwise, when the team you are responsible for is struggling badly and ultimately your job will be on the line, why not turn to the best, fit right back you have at your disposal.

Nobody is saying O'Donnell is a world beater. But Alexander's treatment of him was mystifying and in my opinion hurt the team (and Mugabi as an individual) . And to finish it off I believe the signing of McGinn was another attempt at forcing O'Donnell to leave. It clearly was not with the intention of playing both on the right in a formation that just might have gotten the best out of both players.

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Short term memories.  O'Donnell made about five critical errors in games in a row. Crazy handballs to not clearing his lines (remember now?) gifting goals.

I am the polar opposite to your narrative, I couldn't believe when we signed O'Donnell and thought it was a coup for the club.

Stinks of player power and when Gannon got sacked for dropping seniors who were simply not playing well.

No one has a god given right to play when they are playing poorly.

Which is why I found it nice and refreshing to see the young man make his debut last week ahead of Tierney who played poorly in his last game.

 

* Name 5 decent games he's had. Where did he finish in last seasons  votes by fans?

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11 hours ago, wunderwell said:

 

 

* Name 5 decent games he's had. Where did he finish in last seasons  votes by fans?

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well.

Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is,  benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out.

As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final.

And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll.

I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

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We needed a left back. Alexander signed a right back so now we have two international right backs. The whole preparation for this season has stank to high heaven and now we are trying to get players match fit by playing them in actual league games. It has been a shockingly unprofessional off-season even disregarding the Sligo results. Almost feels like GA was working his ticket but, surely, no professional would do that (apart from Dec)?

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11 hours ago, dennyc said:

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well.

Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is,  benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out.

As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final.

And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll.

I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

Great response!

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17 hours ago, dennyc said:

For me most of the fans that wanted SOD dropped never wanted him at the Club in the first place. I'm not going to trawl back but the comments when he signed were out of order. Some even held his supposed liking of Celtic against him. So when he had a dip in form it just played into their narrative. When he had a decent game those fans were noticeably quiet. His winner in Europe some time back as a classic example. So his form was not their main motivation, even when it was poor. When he had a decent game for Scotland those same fans also used that against him.

I suppose the same could be said about Alexander. And, sadly, will no doubt be the case with whoever is next to take the reins at the club. Unless they're a former player who the majority of fans like.

An example of that would be Paul Lambert. I've seen a number of fans saying they'd take him because he was a good player for us. I follow Ipswich Town, and if our fans think Graham Alexander's football was bad, they better hope Lambert never gets the job. At one point with Ipswich Lambert was sitting on 2 wins from 25 games.

18 hours ago, dennyc said:

I think we agree he was probably our best right back whether he was playing or not. We were certainly both supportive of him and thought some of the comments against him were OTT. Where we differ seems to be when it comes to Alexander's part in things. Even when Mugabi was really struggling and becoming a liability out wide, Alexander insisted on sticking with him in that position. Not only on a game by game basis, but also during games when Mugabi was almost pleading to be replaced. And O'Donnell was on the Bench, fit and unused.  When Alexander eventually decided to change things, he ignored SOD and even turned to O'Hara in one game.

Oh, Alexander played a part in things. Where I tend to disagree is this notion in certain areas that Alexander dropped him and didn't bring him back because O'Donnell was reportedly a lone voice standing against the evil, arrogant manager who doesn't know what he's doing. 

I just think he saw, like the rest of us, the errors he was making quite consistently in games last season and thought that he wasn't good enough. Was he right in that assessment? I don't think so, and I certainly don't think he's worse than Mugabi or any of the other players he tried to shoehorn into that position.

But I think it's an honest assessment. And it's not insane to believe that he just didn't rate O'Donnell.

18 hours ago, dennyc said:

So, if O'Donnell was injured why was he on the Bench? If he was not injured why was he ignored when everybody could see Mugabi was struggling. If Alexander did not rate O'Donnell why pick him in the first place, even on the Bench. The logical answer I can come up with was that it was personal between the two.

If there was animosity between the two of them why would he bother picking him at all? Surely having him on the bench suggests that he thought he was worth having as a backup, even if he didn't rate him as highly as some.

Again, I honestly think if Alexander was arrogant and fighting with his own team, dropping people out of spite and so on, he wouldn't have the backing of the captain. Kelly had no reason to come out and say what he did. He didn't have to do it, but he did, which tells you the respect he has for him.

I don't believe Kelly would feel that way if Alexander was the type who was ostracising his team-mates.

I just think he didn't rate Stephen O'Donnell. Which isn't a crazy notion, as a large chunk of our fanbase don't rate him either.

18 hours ago, dennyc said:

Nobody is saying O'Donnell is a world beater. But Alexander's treatment of him was mystifying and in my opinion hurt the team (and Mugabi as an individual) . And to finish it off I believe the signing of McGinn was another attempt at forcing O'Donnell to leave. It clearly was not with the intention of playing both on the right in a formation that just might have gotten the best out of both players.

Oh, absolutely. He signed McGinn to replace O'Donnell. Now, here's a question. What if the next manager comes in and thinks McGinn is a better option than O'Donnell as well? 

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23 hours ago, dennyc said:

Kelly and (when he eventually got recalled) Lamie are about the only two that had 5 decent games all season. And they made mistakes as well.

Plenty of others........to name a few in no particular order....Carroll, Mugabi, Goss, Shields, McGinley, MacGuire and even Watt and Van Veen....had a run of games where they made the same mistakes over and over. But they were not treated in the same way as O'Donnell. That is,  benched and ignored until season end no matter how dire the situation got. Short time memory seems to work both ways. So no. I'm not going to scapegoat O'Donnell for making errors. He sure did, but so did everybody else. Almost the entire team was underperforming from January onwards, if not before. Just some were singled out more than others. O'Donnell was not alone in that but he suffered most. Grimshaw came close but in his case he disappeared from the matchday squad for not being good enough but was not made to sit on the bench game in game out.

As for fan votes. I'll take those with a pinch of salt given that many of those voting would not have voted for O'Donnell if he had scored a hat trick in the last five minutes against Celtic/Rangers in a cup final.

And if we are to believe fan votes online, then us Motherwell fans voted Goss as our player of the year in the matchday BBC poll.

I think O'Donnell was treated appallingly. You don't. We'll just have to agree to differ.

I think we will but this is the last I will say. You clearly have more people agreeing with you as you have the post likes!

How where they not treated the same way? Carroll and McGinley played a merry go round with each other and both ended up starting less games than O'Donnell. I do agree that both individuals more particularly Carroll was at fault for certain goals and he did lose his place like O'Donnell. So how is that not the same? Shields only started 17 matches in a yoyo season, was he treated unfairly? MacGuire was injured for most of the season. Watt was our best player and led us ultimately to 5th dropping him would have been insane.

I don't think I agree that our support on Steelmenonline online are petty enough that if O'Donnell had some form of cracking game the fans would not vote for him. Kelly won man of the match in our last game by a mile where some of his comments may have caused supporters not to vote. I cannot remember O'Donnell having good games. I've seen him be ok but can't recollect better than that. Talking about this Motherwell supporters site and the BBC where one man and his dog voted is not comparable.

It's up to O'Donnell to prove me wrong, if he plays well I'll be the first to acknowledge. There is no grudge to bare. He simply needs to do the business on the pitch.

PS: I agree with every single post David has made, more eloquently put than myself! (but i did use the word eloquently)

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3 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

was that the same fans who thought tom boyd, rab mckinnon were great full backs?

Not at all. I think in those days fans were a bit more rational when it came to certain other teams. Since then sporting dislike has turned to obsessive hatred for some. A blight that sadly affects more than Motherwell. "Tribal" is the word often used.

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8 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

was that the same fans who thought tom boyd, rab mckinnon were great full backs?

Boyd and McKinnon were decent full backs in their time, Boyd might be an obnoxious celtic obsessed arsehole these days, but he was a decent player back in the day.

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24 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Boyd and McKinnon were decent full backs in their time, Boyd might be an obnoxious celtic obsessed arsehole these days, but he was a decent player back in the day.

Rab McKinnon was one of my favourite ever players, just slightly behind Joe wark as best ever left back 

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13 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

Rab McKinnon was one of my favourite ever players, just slightly behind Joe wark as best ever left back 

McKinnon was excellent . To be fair we had about 20 years of consecutively good left backs . McKinnon , McMillan and Hammell. 


 

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