Kmcalpin

A good thought provoking post by Well Up For It. In the great scheme of things a minor issue. If accepted, then a yellow card instead of a red. Player should still not have been sent off.

We're now past the first knock our stages in the League Cup and the first two league games. The transfer window has about another fortnight to run. How are we doing so far? I think its too early to draw definitive conclusions but here's my work in progress report. Goalkeeper: Carson is a definite upgrade on Samson and is more reliable and better in the air. An all action packed keeper but prone top the odd rush of blood to the head. Defence: Has potential but lacks experience and thats catching us out so far. Tait seems to be the weak link now. Not sure where Hammell & McManus go from here. Midfield: Definitely better than last season although we're over reliant on attacking down the wings. On paper midfield looks better equipped to protect the defence but perhaps they're still getting to know one another. Wings are working well. Can't fathom out Rose yet. Until Saturday was fairly anonymous but played well in Perth. if I'm pushed I'd say he's a low profile player who can do a lot on unnoticed but valuable spadework. Attack: my biggest concern. Moult is struggling for fitness and not getting decent service. Bowman and Fisher just aren't cutting the mustard. Both work very hard but are firing blanks. Of the two Fisher has shown slightly more. Bowman to move on? In general I'm not a fan of the 3 at the back or of the single striker formation. Good to see the team is more physical this year and less prone to bullying by the opposition. However we're a bit naive and inexperienced. Where to we go from here? Obviously the team will settle down and gel more given the large number of new players arriving. I'd say we need an experienced defender and a quick striker up front.

Was Griffiths also unsighted?

Sorry for not making myself clear....since the retaken penalty in the Inverness game.

Have we seen any retaken penalties since in the Premiership for encroachment?

Yes. If the linesman made the call the chances are that he saw it from a near 90 degree angle and the ball would have been obscured by Carson's hand. given the very fine margin of error he would have found it difficult to judge just when he touched the ball.

My view entirely. Now take into account we have possibly the best photo available, unlike the match officials who had to make a split second decision. Its not clear if it is 100% outside the box and its not clear if he actually handles at the point the shot was taken - the ball was still moving. Carson seems to be looking directly at the ball and at close range and seems to have timed his save. Do we really think he made a mistake in handling outside of the box? We are quite right to question these decisions as the outcome of next week's game could depend on them. Margins are very fine indeed. Its not simply a case of chewing over old fat.

An aspect of the decision which hasn't been highlighted much Geoff and you're right. It was not a goalscoring opportunity. We had 2 players who could have made a block or tackle and the St Johnstone player did not have clear sight of goal. Irrespective of where the ball was, this argument should be compelling. Thomson not only made errors of sight but also of judgement.

There's a naivety about the team full stop. More excusably in younger players certainly. As was said earlier, St Johnstone, by comparison, are a streetwise team and yes, unpalatable or not, that did involve conning the referee yesterday. In terms of football alone, our younger lads must learn for example Kipre should have launched the ball out of the park before Carson picked the ball up. "Streetwiseness" is also a quality some managers actively seek and encourage in players. Two players who come to mind were Eoin Jess and Scott Booth at Aberdeen. Even as teenagers they knew all the dodges, cons and tricks. Dundee United were also very good at coaching this aspect of the game. With some players, rashness is just part of their make up and thats a fact of life.

Andy Rose for me followed by Ben Heneghan. No other standouts. I thought Richard Tait again tried his best but his defending was very weak throughout.

Good post. having watched all 3 red card incidents I'd say we were really hard done by. For the first I've watched the highlights replay time and again and I'm not 100% clear as it was very very close; a matter of inches in fact. The best I can come up with is that it was on the line. Now that raises two issues. Sieb is correct in that Thomson was some distance away and did not enjoy a good angle. I don't know what the SFA regulations state but if I wasn't 100% sure I would not issue a red card. Surely his decision wasn't based on probability ie I don't know if it was legal or not but probably wasn't; a 51/49 decision? Ropy's earlier comment about corners came into my thinking also. Its common practice at corners for the taker to place the ball on the very edge of the arc and no more. Now thats deemed to be within the arc and therefore legal. For the second I thought it was a fair tackle at the game and I'm still of that view. However I can see why Thomson issued a yellow card. A 60/40 decision in my view. Again Thomson probably wasn't 100% sure. The third red card is laughable. Dunne in my view accidentally clips the Saints player who goes on and then stubs his boot on the grass. As a layman I would not issue a card, red or yellow, unless I was pretty certain that an offence had taken place. Mistaken and unsafe decisions can cost teams games and money; players money; and deny spectators a fair contest. Just me maybe, but if I'd issued a red card to a team I'd have to be very very certain indeed to issue further red cards for fear of unfairly influencing games. I think we're fully justified in appealing 2 red cards but of course we can't challenge the second, being the culmination of 2 yellow cards.

Well I was at the game and its fair to say its one of the oddest I've witnessed in almost 60 years. I'll not comment on the 3 red cards as I haven't seen them in detail. I thought mistakes were made in the team selection. We lacked pace and movement up front and perhaps, and I say perhaps, MacLean could have given us that. Predictably left wing was a problem for us. We started off well and controlled the game and swung over cross after cross into Saints' box with little effect. Plenty of possession and graft but no cutting edge. After perhaps 20 minutes of pressure we failed to register one effort on goal. Saints broke away and predictably scored 2 goals with 2 attacks. the first one relying on spades of good luck. Bowman and Fisher worked damned hard but did nothing admittedly, with poor service. Poor defending did cost us and thats what Saints are good at - making few mistakes and scoring when the chance presents itself. Over the piece we didn't play badly but lacked experience and streetwiseness. Up front is where our problems lie. Neither Fisher nor Bowman look like doing the business at this level. Hard work in life by itself counts for nothing. As we lost men Saints began to dominate the game as you'd expect. They've now picked up 6 points by beating 2 teams in close fought games as they do. I can't go on without referring to the referee. Red cards apart he had a poor and inconsistent game. He missed 2 blatant hand balls, at close range and a cast iron penalty in my book when Paton, I think, grabbed Moult by the throat at a corner. However you dress it up Paton did not do that by accident. I'd also like him to explain to me why he checked our players 6 times for stealing yards at throw ins and did not pull up Saints once, not once, for similar indiscretions. Failing to give the advantage when Moult was fouled was not something you expect from an experienced referee. As far as Robbo is concerned he must address 2 weaknesses: occasional errors at the back and lack of bite/punch up front. The latter is now becoming a worry. Overall though I'm not overly concerned. We've had 2 tough closely fought league games and sustained two losses with little or no luck. Normally after a defeat I'm hard on the team, but not today. I was one who applauded them off the field for fighting well even when down to 8 men and not giving up. A number of players, including Louis Moult, appreciated that and came over to acknowledge the applause. One final thought is it normal practice for the 3 match officials to leave the pitch before most of the players? I always thought the ref was last to leave.

Mark Reynolds in our classic at Aberdeen? Deliberate handball on the goal line, the ref played on rightly, goal scored but no red card? I'd like to see his explanation about that.

Yes, I think MacLean is due a chance. Injuries permitting you'd think that Cadden, Bigimania, McHugh and Rose are certain starters in midfield. Glad to see that Frear's injury is nowhere as bad as first feared (torn hamstring/serious groin strain).

Good post. I wasn't at the game and didn't have a front seat view. Looking back at the highlights its unclear what happened - yes there was a collision of course and Dunne seemed to come in from behind. However the picture just isn't clear enough to convince me either way. As you say there has to be intent and the appeals committee will have to be convinced of Dunne's intentions - not easy I'd say.

So many unknowns about this game. We've quite a few players suffering knocks and bruises so it'll be difficult to determine our line up. We'll play 5 in middle though maybe in a 4-5-1 formation if Tanner isn't fit. We don't yet know who St Johnstone will play up front - one of the strikers may not even be signed up yet. I'm a bit more confident this season as we're better prepared physically to match Saints. However they're a more experienced and streetwise team than us and know all the scams, cons and tricks. We've got a shocking recent record in Perth, admittedly based on little good luck, so its time to rectify that. I think the team will give the support more to cheer this time round.

Yes a decent player who can be very physical. He'll meet his match in Cedric though.

Just watched the highlights again and I've come to the conclusion that the County keeper was a lucky lad. As MacLean looks to take the ball past him he lunges in late with his legs outstretched. Worthy of a yellow card certainly. Academic however.

I understand what you're saying. If referees interpret that consistently and strictly you could see several red cards per game. Pulling, pushing, shirt pulling, are all very common at corners, free kicks and crosses. Presumably any foul within say 7/8 metres of the goal could be interpreted as denying a goalscoring opportunity.

So, we can expect an absolute flood of red cards this season then?

Yes so am I. He seems to know exactly what kind of squad he wants and is recruiting accordingly. Its not just down to the type of player he's bringing in ie attacking midfielder, defender, but he's also adding pace and physicality. Last but not least he likes players with character (as Jock Wallace would say) who will battle for the cause.

C'mon folks lets see if we can hit a target of £580. The site has a big membership and we have a lot of lurkers or lapsed members. A few more £5 or £10 donations will do it. Iain will gladly accept your contributions.

I assume he was pretty anonymous tonight and most fans didn't notice his contribution. A great night for us in what was a difficult game. This squad is shaping up nicely and we seem to have battling qualities about us now. Credit to the players and management. Safe journey back for our travelling fans. Looking forward to the highlights. Was our new mascot, Steelman, responsible for the win tonight?

Likewise, but this is the starting line up I was expecting, Heneghan apart maybe. It looks a bit unbalanced and it'll be interesting how our left flank fares. Definitely a more cautious and defensive set up.

Whats the current situation Iain?