SteelmaninOZ Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 16 minutes ago, grizzlyg said: If Max goes to Bologna I wish him well, Italy …. Ps .Bono and the Edge walk into a bar, barman says...."Aw Naw....not U2 again!!" 🤪🤪. Ba boom Was that Sunday Bloody Sunday in the pub? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted February 28, 2023 Report Share Posted February 28, 2023 38 minutes ago, grizzlyg said: Ps .Bono and the Edge walk into a bar, barman says...."Aw Naw....not U2 again!!" 🤪🤪. Ba boom I would like to say that was magnificent but unfortunately it was Bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzyB Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 We got 3million for Turnbull. We got a few excellent seasons out of Campbell. We got a fortune for the unfinished article that was James Scott. We got a development fee for Hastie who turned out to be really quite pish in the end. The list goes on. I don't think there's a single youngster out there who has left us quickly and gone on to better things in recent years. It was the exact same when Hastie left, people foaming at the mouth about an amazing young talent that we should have signed on a 3 year deal after a bang average season on loan at Airdrie. Johnson looks to be an excellent prospect after a few games, but we've done very well getting a lot of return from our youngsters in recent years. Chat of "mismanagement" is dreadful when nobody has any fuckin clue what's going on behind the scenes. We might have offered him six deals over the past two years and he's snubbed them all for all we know. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 Reece McAlear is yet another example. Left us early to join Norwich but didn't cut it there. Then joined Tranmere and is now on loan at Ayr. The grass is not always greener on the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stv Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 Money talks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 4 minutes ago, stv said: Money talks. Of course. And it must be difficult to avoid the temptation when a club down south offers much higher wages than a Fir Park academy player. It's all about long term vs short term. A back of the fag packet statistic seems to be around 60 first team appearances for us before moving leads to better things. At least it did for players like McAllister and McFadden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 What ever way you cut it the Max Johnston situation is a failure to protect a club asset. O'Donnell has been absolutely dismal for us and for a lot of last season we were playing Mugabi at right back. It's not like there wasn't openings in his position. I'd also say going back to Johnston's first couple of appearances in the first team in 2020-21 it was clear to most that he was a player with potential. If there is a Bologna deal going Johnston would be daft not to take it but you'd like it to be a harder decisions for him. Sadly we've not done much to make him think about it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit_It_Out Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said: What ever way you cut it the Max Johnston situation is a failure to protect a club asset. O'Donnell has been absolutely dismal for us and for a lot of last season we were playing Mugabi at right back. It's not like there wasn't openings in his position. I'd also say going back to Johnston's first couple of appearances in the first team in 2020-21 it was clear to most that he was a player with potential. If there is a Bologna deal going Johnston would be daft not to take it but you'd like it to be a harder decisions for him. Sadly we've not done much to make him think about it. 100 percent this!we used every other Lego brick to fill that hole and O.Donnell has been pretty much a non event for about a year and half. I can't for life of me understand why he was allowed to go out on loan to Cove in September more so by a manager that's watched my career progress but doesn't fancy me to actually play for the first team when I am clearly good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellsince75 Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said: What ever way you cut it the Max Johnston situation is a failure to protect a club asset. O'Donnell has been absolutely dismal for us and for a lot of last season we were playing Mugabi at right back. It's not like there wasn't openings in his position. I'd also say going back to Johnston's first couple of appearances in the first team in 2020-21 it was clear to most that he was a player with potential. If there is a Bologna deal going Johnston would be daft not to take it but you'd like it to be a harder decisions for him. Sadly we've not done much to make him think about it. fair point re being drafted in earlier but he's still only 19 and likely to be a much better player for learning his trade on the loan deals. I don't know the ins and outs but to say we've not protected an asset appears a little harsh. Max was loaned out to get experience in lower divisions and then brought into the team. Bigger clubs are now coming in for him and sounds like he'll take the opportunity. Good for him, I hope it works out for him. Personally I don't see this as a failure of the club, the system isn't set up for to be able to hold on. We've had a long line of talent over recent years which suggests that despite the system not being great that we do a great job of giving youngsters a platform. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 32 minutes ago, wellsince75 said: fair point re being drafted in earlier but he's still only 19 and likely to be a much better player for learning his trade on the loan deals. I don't know the ins and outs but to say we've not protected an asset appears a little harsh. Max was loaned out to get experience in lower divisions and then brought into the team. Bigger clubs are now coming in for him and sounds like he'll take the opportunity. Good for him, I hope it works out for him. Personally I don't see this as a failure of the club, the system isn't set up for to be able to hold on. We've had a long line of talent over recent years which suggests that despite the system not being great that we do a great job of giving youngsters a platform. Exactly this. A few folk are just determined to find fault with the Club. If it wasn't Johnston it would be something else. And still no answer as to how to make a player sign on if he sees better options elsewhere. Reality plays little part in their criticism. Not everybody is like Turnbull or McFadden who signed on to earn the Club money, trusting they would get their transfer anyway. Playing in Heart's first team did not stop Hickey wanting to leave when the chance of a lifetime came up. same as the kid who left Aberdeen for Liverpool. And if those opportunities had come earlier they would have left earlier. The Board and Burrows may have made mistakes but this is not one of them. Or is the suggestion that we should insist youngsters sign a three year contract before we let them play in the first team? Good luck with that. Even if Johnston had not gone out on Loan his contract would still have run out this summer. So Loaning or not had no effect on him staying or leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stv Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 52 minutes ago, wellsince75 said: fair point re being drafted in earlier but he's still only 19 and likely to be a much better player for learning his trade on the loan deals. I don't know the ins and outs but to say we've not protected an asset appears a little harsh. Max was loaned out to get experience in lower divisions and then brought into the team. Bigger clubs are now coming in for him and sounds like he'll take the opportunity. Good for him, I hope it works out for him. Personally I don't see this as a failure of the club, the system isn't set up for to be able to hold on. We've had a long line of talent over recent years which suggests that despite the system not being great that we do a great job of giving youngsters a platform. That’s just about right. This seems to be the model for clubs like ours . 1 Youth team , 2 reserves , 3 farmed out to smaller team for game time to see if you can cut it , 4 up to the big team 5 make it or your out your depth (log in to steelmen online to find out which) . How on earth can we be expected to keep or hold on to talented youngsters is the million dollar question when they are being advised to sign short contracts and move on. Between 3 and 4 is probably round about the end of a contract time . It’s easy with hindsight and a computer. I think we have done ok over the years making money on youngsters, never going to do it with all the good ones tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted March 1, 2023 Report Share Posted March 1, 2023 We will be due a development fee, does this increase any with an increase in first team appearances (for us). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted March 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 I don't know why people assume the club can just "tie a player down" with a deal, as if it's automatic that said player will accept the contract on offer? If Johnston has always shown the potential that some are claiming on here, it could be that he was always going to let his current deal run almost to expiration and explore his options? And if he hasn't always shown that potential then why would the club be rushing to "tie down" someone who may not even make it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coatsy Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 19 hours ago, dennyc said: Playing in Heart's first team did not stop Hickey wanting to leave when the chance of a lifetime came up. same as the kid who left Aberdeen for Liverpool. And if those opportunities had come earlier they would have left earlier. The Board and Burrows may have made mistakes but this is not one of them. According to transfermarket Hearts made 1.7 million for Hickey and Aberdeen made 4.9 million for Ramsay. I take it they were not development fees Sorry i have to disagree its poor from the club to not have there assets tied down. I have no problem with players leaving because we are a development and selling club. BUT we must ensure we get value which in this case looks like we won't so who's fault is that then 19 hours ago, stv said: That’s just about right. This seems to be the model for clubs like ours . 1 Youth team , 2 reserves , 3 farmed out to smaller team for game time to see if you can cut it , 4 up to the big team 5 make it or your out your depth (log in to steelmen online to find out which) . How on earth can we be expected to keep or hold on to talented youngsters is the million dollar question when they are being advised to sign short contracts and move on. Between 3 and 4 is probably round about the end of a contract time . It’s easy with hindsight and a computer. I think we have done ok over the years making money on youngsters, never going to do it with all the good ones tho. What about treating your better assets like Alan Campbell or Turnbull i.e play them i the first team and let them find their level, i think we've all got a fairly good idea what level McGuire and Cornelius are and i don't expect to make fortunes out of them, lets face it when Johnston was getting farmed out who thought that he would have been a good sellable asset we hardly saw him in the first team to judge. The path to first team from Motherwell Youths is nowhere near as clear as some would make out just look at our last managers failings from his words when he was appointed and many on here want him back running the academy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted March 2, 2023 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, Coatsy said: According to transfermarket Hearts made 1.7 million for Hickey and Aberdeen made 4.9 million for Ramsay. I take it they were not development fees Sorry i have to disagree its poor from the club to not have there assets tied down. What if said player doesn't want to be "tied down" by the club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real dosser Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 Kettlewell saying he has been offered a deal to stay at Fir Park and knows he is wanted by himself and the club. The way he said it I think the offer may have been made before the Italian interest was known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coatsy Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 hour ago, David said: What if said player doesn't want to be "tied down" by the club? Part of the point is Ramsay and Hickey were playing for the first team not loaned out, if he was given a proper chance why would he not have wanted to be tied down it happens at other clubs its a pity you can't see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 hours ago, David said: What if said player doesn't want to be "tied down" by the club? Strangely enough not one of the few folk determined to blame the Club have an answer to that question. But no matter. Burrows etc are to blame. That suits the agenda. I don't recall all this fuss when McKinstrey left for Leeds, or McAlear for Norwich. Disappointed that we were, talk then was all about whether we had sell on clauses and there was an acceptance that the Club could do no more than offer him terms and try to negotiate a deal with their new clubs. Ramsay and Hickey signed contracts at Aberdeen and Hearts because when their contract discussions were taking place no "bigger" Club came in for them. If Liverpool and Bologna had been interested at that stage then let's agree those Scottish contracts would not have been signed. Sadly for us, Johnston is about to be out of contract and bigger Clubs ARE interested. That's a huge difference and takes control out of Motherwell's hands. Perversely Motherwell might actually have had a better chance of retaining him if he had not been recalled and put on show for the likes of Bologna. But it all comes down to the question that David posed. How do you make a player sign a Contract? If he is as confident of his future as Johnston appears to be and from a football family, would that player not stall until the last possible moment to see if better options come up? We are only Motherwell after all. In the knowledge that he always has the offer from his parent club to fall back on as a last resort. He could also use that outside interest to negotiate better terms if he preferred to stay for whatever reason. Why sign away all the power before you have to? I certainly would delay as long as possible and I believe most folk would as well. The players hold all the aces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 I'm sure too that Hickey and Ramsay were on extremely lucrative deals that would blow us out of the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 How many youth superstars have we allowed to walk out the club for nothing? How many youths have we signed up but haven’t made the grade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit_It_Out Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 We will never ever make any money on our youth players unless we play them more in the first team it's as simple as that. I would rather have seen a Max Johnston pushing for a first team since start of season than O Donnell who has been utterly useless for well over a year when he has came in. Least with a young one you will get endless effort and keen to Impress some of the performances I witnessed from certain first team players last 7 months of so I wouldn't let them on the training pitch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 45 minutes ago, Spit_It_Out said: We will never ever make any money on our youth players unless we play them more in the first team it's as simple as that. 100% agree but how much do we pay them? £4k a week? Maybe £5k or what about 6k? For us to fork out that kind of cash we'd need to be damn sure they were the real deal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spit_It_Out Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 26 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said: 100% agree but how much do we pay them? £4k a week? Maybe £5k or what about 6k? For us to fork out that kind of cash we'd need to be damn sure they were the real deal. That's it mate just don't have the answer to that it's all a risk really but all the development fees we get we should be getting transfer fees. I feel blessed we had Campbell for ages and got to see Turnbull come good feel like we will miss out on seeing Johnston in a Well shirt for long which is kinda gutting. I have a feeling he might end up Aberdeen just have feeling old AB will be sniffing around that like a rat lol. I think having an old man as an ex footballer might have not helped our cause in contract negotiations either pretty sure he will have enough contacts to get him a better deal elsewhere. I mean some of the clubs apparently looking at him down south even playing in the development leagues down in England is some standard to test yourself it's rammed with talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yabba's Turd Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 2 hours ago, ropy said: How many youth superstars have we allowed to walk out the club for nothing? How many youths have we signed up but haven’t made the grade? How many of said 'superstars' are actually superstars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted March 2, 2023 Report Share Posted March 2, 2023 1 minute ago, Yabba's Turd said: How many of said 'superstars' are actually superstars? My point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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