2023/24 ins & outs discussion

[GraniteCityMFC]

17 minutes ago, MelvinBragg said:

Share with the group...?

 Conor Keeley, Irish centre half. 

[MelvinBragg]

4 minutes ago, GraniteCityMFC said:

 Conor Keeley, Irish centre half. 

Another centre half? Surely not...

[wellsince75]

1 hour ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Different era.

We brought Dougie Arnott to the club knowing it would take two or three seasons to get him up to speed,

In the pre Bosman era you could sign players as 'projects'.

That's not really the case any more, especially 25 year olds.

Pretty sure young Dougie wasn’t quite honest about his age - he said he was 19 when he was 21 .

anyways - I’d be over the moon if we could find a youngster from the lower leagues .

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

20 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

Pretty sure young Dougie wasn’t quite honest about his age - he said he was 19 when he was 21 .

I don't think he was honest about his height either!

As I remember he was always listed as 5' 8.

Don't think so!

[steelboy]

2 hours ago, star sail said:

There is nothing wrong with mentioning these players as being of the standard we should be aiming for.

The problem is that is is a post that is easy to make with the benefit of hindsight. Watt in particular was a massive risk. It just happened to work when it had not really worked for other clubs before or since. 

The question for Steelboy or anyone else being critical of the signings is who is out there now,that Motherwell can afford, that would guarantee the output of the players mentioned? Name a name.

The risk is always there that it might not work. A success rate of 25% is probably about as good as we are likely to get. I think Motherwell have been more successful than most of finding gems, Higdon, Moult and KVV being the most obvious modern day examples 

Imagine the reaction if Motherwell were announcing the signing of a young Dougie Arnott today. A player from the Junior leagues. It would be mayhem.

We had a guy from the Juniors on trial and I think most people would have been fine if we signed him to be around the squad. If we signed him to be a starter then it's a different story. 

The issue here is that we have seen what Obika offers and it's substandard and Wilkinson has offered nothing so far. If these are our starters it's fair to say we are in bother

The boy from Arsenal is the kind of gamble we should be looking for but the guy from St Johnstone is basically saying we have given up trying to bring in anyone decent.

Last season we played Partick in a friendly with Morris, Efford and Shields up front. People that actually know a bit about football immediately saw that this was a disaster in the making and it obviously turned out that way because they managed zero goals between the three of them. I've seen people on here defending Jacob Blyth and Sherwin Seedorf despite the fact that it's not just that they weren't good enough for us but weren't even Scottish League Two standard. 

 

[David]

Just now, steelboy said:

The boy from Arsenal is the kind of gamble we should be looking for but the guy from St Johnstone is basically saying we have given up trying to bring in anyone decent.

Has Theo Bair actually signed for us? I haven't seen one word about it happening other than someone saying that he was one of two incomings who would be signed "tomorrow."

That was on Thursday.

[fizoxy]

1 minute ago, David said:

Has Theo Bair actually signed for us? I haven't seen one word about it happening other than someone saying that he was one of two incomings who would be signed "tomorrow."

That was on Thursday.

No, but waiting until he's signed would waste valuable pants wetting time.

[AllyMax]

1 minute ago, David said:

Has Theo Bair actually signed for us? I haven't seen one word about it happening other than someone saying that he was one of two incomings who would be signed "tomorrow."

That was on Thursday.

We've exhausetd slagging of the ones who have signed. We're moving on to rumours now and next week, it'll be ones we're not even linked with.

 

[grizzlyg]

SThe lack of strikers is a concern but I trust SK to address it. Personally I would have given Aitchison a year deal

Keep calm and pray for some strikers 

 

[MelvinBragg]

Kettlewell confirmed that Bair and Biereth are players that have been discussed but neither deal is done post match today...

[FirParkCornerExile]

On 7/28/2023 at 12:44 AM, Cameron_Mcd said:

Some people need to get a grip of themselves. Absolutely no need to be losing the plot over a guy who hasn't signed for us yet. In terms of budgets Livi will be the only one definitely worse off than us yet people are going apo-fucking-plectic when we don't sign Harry Kane and Mbappe. Take a deep breath and calm down. 

I don't buy this "how poor our budget is compared to others". Our wages bill has been greater than Kilmarnock, Ross County , St Mirren and Livi. All of us very rarely spend a transfer fee so we must be competing with them on that side of things. In January we were told there was no money to change much..... we then signed 9 players. We plead the same poverty line all the time , every year and ever transfer window and I always think they over egg it. Sure we lost a million quid last year but the other clubs lost money too. We have also taken in more than those other teams in transfer fees over the last 5 or 6 seasons by some measure. I'm not inferring we are awash with cash and dont need to keep an eye on the budget but frankly some of the stuff is over the top.

[Kmcalpin]

40 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

I don't buy this "how poor our budget is compared to others". Our wages bill has been greater than Kilmarnock, Ross County , St Mirren and Livi. All of us very rarely spend a transfer fee so we must be competing with them on that side of things. In January we were told there was no money to change much..... we then signed 9 players. We plead the same poverty line all the time , every year and ever transfer window and I always think they over egg it. Sure we lost a million quid last year but the other clubs lost money too. We have also taken in more than those other teams in transfer fees over the last 5 or 6 seasons by some measure. I'm not inferring we are awash with cash and dont need to keep an eye on the budget but frankly some of the stuff is over the top.

This season, Ross County and St Mirren are paying fees. I don't know about Livi and Kilmarnock.

Going back, I agree with you in principle. Money was wasted by Alexander and Hammell. The tem "Wage Bills" can be misleading. What that doesn't tell you is whether a large bloated squad is being paid low average wages or whether a small squad is on high average wages.  I can easily believe that our wage bill was bigger than that of St Mirren's and Livi's, but than that of Kilmarnock? I'd also be keen to learn of St Johnstone's budget - I'm sure thats been higher than many realise and are now paying for it on the field.

Yes, we do overegg it. You rarely hear other clubs complain about their playing budgets, although David Martindale does often say that his budget is the lowest in the league.   

[wellsince75]

All things being equal were probably the 6th or 7th biggest club in Scotland.

Suspect our wage bill is broadly in line with that . 
 

Where I see our issue os we haven’t really progressed this century . In the 80s and 90s there was a steady improvement in league and also quality we brought in .

then we had the crazy Boyle period , recovered and over the last 10 years it feels like we’re hand to mouth brining in lots of journeyman and hoping we don’t cock up and end up on relegation

although SH tenure didn’t work I did buy into the vision of brining in youth .
 

we now have SK making it clear that he wants a smaller squad , invest in youth and work within his budget .this feels a much better way forward , the key will be brining in a small sprinkling of quality .  

[joewarkfanclub]

59 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

We now have SK making it clear that he wants a smaller squad , invest in youth and work within his budget this feels a much better way forward , the key will be brining in a small sprinkling of quality .  

This is absolutely the way forward for our club and any other fan owned club for that matter.

It will take SK a few windows to get us there as he tidies up the contracts situation and assesses who is ready for the step up. It will be a gradual process and one he will have to manage carefully, because he needs to keep his job in the meantime. But hopefully we will start to see the benefit of the strategy as we go along.

[FirParkCornerExile]

1 hour ago, wellsince75 said:

All things being equal were probably the 6th or 7th biggest club in Scotland.

Suspect our wage bill is broadly in line with that . 
 

Where I see our issue os we haven’t really progressed this century . In the 80s and 90s there was a steady improvement in league and also quality we brought in .

then we had the crazy Boyle period , recovered and over the last 10 years it feels like we’re hand to mouth brining in lots of journeyman and hoping we don’t cock up and end up on relegation

although SH tenure didn’t work I did buy into the vision of brining in youth .
 

we now have SK making it clear that he wants a smaller squad , invest in youth and work within his budget .this feels a much better way forward , the key will be brining in a small sprinkling of quality .  

Yes and no , the next progression from the 90s would be to win the league and that would never happen. So from that high plateau we had to regress when we became a fan owned club with a piss poor support. However when you measure how much we have regressed compared to everyone outside the OF , Aberdeen and Hearts in the 21st century our regression has been remarkably tame. Yes Hearts have been relegated in that time and Aberdeen bottom six however their overall average over the period has been pretty steady.

The biggest problem has been in the last 5 years where we have taken in plenty in transfer money but have wasted alot of money on seriously piss poor managerial appointments. However because of that success in the transfer market these costly decisions have not been as fatal as they could have been. Frustrating that the money wasn't used to strengthen us on the field of play but to offset poor appointments.

[Ya Bezzer!]

38 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

This is absolutely the way forward for our club and any other fan owned club for that matter.

It will take SK a few windows to get us there as he tidies up the contracts situation and assesses who is ready for the step up. It will be a gradual process and one he will have to manage carefully, because he needs to keep his job in the meantime. But hopefully we will start to see the benefit of the strategy as we go along.

I think youth development should be, if not quite the main objective for the club, one of paramount importance.  I've said before it should absolutely be part of the first team managers remit and not just a secondary role.

With the football market as it is, it's been proved time and time again that we can produce better players than we can bring in, either as players with sell on potential or as players who will settle in at our level of football.

And I realise it's easier to write down than actually make happen but I'd like to see smaller squads of better quality players with youth coming in to fill in gaps and hopefully make a name for themselves while doing so.  

First team squad of 22 - 23 players is fine if you get the youth development side right.

However youth development on a wider view within Scotland is pretty much a shambles right now.  It really needs to be addressed on a national level.

[joewarkfanclub]

Without knowing the real ins and outs of youth development and with having no experience or knowledge of it whatsoever, it appears to me as an outsider that the development of youth players at national level is skewed towards producing the best elite players for the national team.

While it looks like we are having some success in this regard with the first Project Brave graduates now featuring for the national team and enhancing our chances of qualifying for tournaments, the pathway for those that are late developers or not at elite level seems less clear. 

Probably deserves a topic on its own, given the importance of the debate to our game.........

[santheman]

I think this season will be a kinda transitional season in some respects where Kettlewell will have to be given some leeway to correct the mistakes of previous regimes and I hope the fans remember that.

Living within our means is important but I do hope the board see that loosening the purse strings just now to bring in a couple more quality players might just save us money in the long run and avoid the clusterfuck that was the January window.

His mantra of running with a squad of 22 is sensible with 2 players in each recognised position and some flexibility with players who can fill different roles. 18 players who could be considered "starters" with 4 of our best youth prospects making up the balance.

Think we're on the right track and when you compare us to where we are against this time just after the Sligo debacle last season then its night and day.

 

 

[FirParkCornerExile]

On 7/29/2023 at 12:30 PM, MelvinBragg said:

Another centre half? Surely not...

Well I'd think Mugabi and Lammies days are numbered maybe even moving on, so why not.

[fizoxy]

That transfer story about the Irish defender turned out to be nothing.

[Ya Bezzer!]

6 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

Well I'd think Mugabi and Lammies days are numbered maybe even moving on, so why not.

Mugabi played three of the four league cup matches and was playing in the middle of the back three.

It also seemed that part of our tactics was for the play to start with Mugabi passing the ball out from the back.

It might be that Mugabi plays a bigger part this season than some seem to think.

Lamie on the other hand only played once and when you throw in Blaney (and Butcher further down the line) I'd say you are right on that score.

 

[Villageman]

I know it is lower division opponents but I have to say Mugabi had a much improved performance against East fife than against QOS. He had the support of Casey and Blaney and was obviously to me al least told to do the simple thongs well ie let his back three partners make the more difficult decisions. Likewise at Elgin he had Blaney and SOD for support. With that kind of support on and off the park he may just have a future.

Must say too been impressed with Blaney so far.

[santheman]

35 minutes ago, Villageman said:

I know it is lower division opponents but I have to say Mugabi had a much improved performance against East fife than against QOS. He had the support of Casey and Blaney and was obviously to me al least told to do the simple thongs well ie let his back three partners make the more difficult decisions. Likewise at Elgin he had Blaney and SOD for support. With that kind of support on and off the park he may just have a future.

Must say too been impressed with Blaney so far.

Agree about Mugabi.

He's the type of player who really needs a run of games to bed himself in. Starting one week then on the bench the next or coming on for a 15 minute cameo doesn't help him.

Yes, hes maybe always got a mistake in him but then what player doesn't. 

[wellsince75]

The issue the other week was playing Mugabi and Lamie together. 

Lamie is very decent for 90% of the game but switches off for periods of each game.

Mugabi big strong lad but lacks positional awareness, he's regularly caught wrong side of players.  The number of penalties , red cards and poor goals are generally due to lack of awareness , which is difficult to coach.

Where it can work is having either of them in the 3-5-1-2 or 5-3-1-2 .

Personal view is he's not the answer for a first team starter. Ok to have him around to plug gaps.  Either he or Lamie should be off loaded as no value in keeping both. 

[David]

23 hours ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

I don't buy this "how poor our budget is compared to others". Our wages bill has been greater than Kilmarnock, Ross County , St Mirren and Livi.

Based on what? Do we know definitively what the yearly wage bill is of Kilmarnock, Ross County, St Mirren, and Livingston?

Having a quick look at their transfer business, I can say that those clubs are signing players I've at least heard of and have Scottish football experience of premiership level. 

Kilmarnock have picked up Kyle Magennis, Matty Kennedy, and Marley Watkins while paying a fee to sign Lewis Mayo from Rangers. Ross County has signed Eamonn Brophy and Scott Allardice and has paid actual money for around five players. St Mirren signed mostly dross, from what I can see, but paid a fee for one of said dross players. 

And Livi has signed Mikey Devlin from Hibs, who I've at least heard of. 

The key factor in all of this is those clubs have someone, or a group of people, with actual money in reserve. We're fan owned. We no longer have that luxury.

22 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

was wasted by Alexander and Hammell. The tem "Wage Bills" can be misleading. What that doesn't tell you is whether a large bloated squad is being paid low average wages or whether a small squad is on high average wages.  I can easily believe that our wage bill was bigger than that of St Mirren's and Livi's, but than that of Kilmarnock? I'd also be keen to learn of St Johnstone's budget - I'm sure thats been higher than many realise and are now paying for it on the field.

And money will be wasted by Kettlewell also. It's the nature of the game at our level. Basically, throw enough shite against the wall and see what sticks. Take a gamble on five players and hope two or even three pay off.

21 hours ago, wellsince75 said:

All things being equal were probably the 6th or 7th biggest club in Scotland.

Suspect our wage bill is broadly in line with that . 

So we have Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, and Dundee United as the largest top six clubs, most likely. 

Do we then come after those clubs as the next biggest? Depends on the criteria, I think. If it's based on money available, then no chance. As highlighted above, Ross County has paid actual money for five players this summer and has an owner worth somewhere in the region of £300 million. 

Even Dundee, although mismanaged of late, has been pulling in crowds similar to ours while they were in the Championship. They're also a city club.

I certainly wouldn't rank us as a top six or seven club in Scotland based on finances, or fanbase. 

20 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

I think youth development should be, if not quite the main objective for the club, one of paramount importance.  I've said before it should absolutely be part of the first team managers remit and not just a secondary role.

See, the fans always say that, but do they really want that? I've mentioned a few times when we've all been discussing striking options that young Mark Ferrie has looked good in his runouts this season. 

But most fans don't want to look at him as an option. We're all waiting patiently for the club to announce another lower-level English league signing with single-digit goal return most seasons in their career.

Every mediocre signing we bring in on a six or twelve month deal is just another useless body who will see game time before someone like Ferrie does.