That Old Chestnut - Do We Move Or Do We Stay

[Goggles & Flippers]

27 minutes ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

I'm not against a new stadium but to think we'd finance it by naming rights and office space is wide of the mark. Rotherham rent out office space in their new stadium and get £36,000 a year from one large office suite.  Out with transfer fees we still  run at a small operating loss so saddling ourselves with £500,000 to £1 million a year in additional financing costs is not realistic.  If it was we'd have done it by now. Wed need numerous commercial partners to get it off the ground and they aren't easy to come by in the current economic climate.t

https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/754397792160593

I appreciate your reticence and there's a host of horror stories of a chairman's ego making a club homeless and a shiny new stadium hosting zero events and quickly turning into the set from the Last of Us (Darlington, Kassam Oxford).

I think we are unique in our league that two teams suck up so much support from the glory hunting/perpetuating the religious bullshit among our population. That also takes competitiveness and money from communities around the country which they go on to complain about.

To put it as simply as possible, for every 1,000 seats we make available to the OF multiplied how often we play them at home over two seasons being seven (six guaranteed and one normally post split, plus an odd cup tie) and an average ticket price £24 (£30 minus 20% VAT) over a 20 year mortgage is £1.7m before you factor inflation which would take it closer to £2m. Give the OF an extra 5,000 seats to add to the 4,800 they get already we've realised £10m in revenue.

Not only that the stadium would benefit from an uplift in home support due to the novelty factor of it being new.

McDiarmid Park makes something like £1.2m from non match day hospitality and function hire. It seems every funeral in Perth goes back there for their sausage rolls and cakes. Even if we realise half of that on top of what we currently pull in, that's massive. Matchday hospitality would go up two or threefold with a modern offering.

You mention the office space, covid allowed for a lot more home working and while there's still a need for it, it's not as essential as it was before. However, you then have to make the office space you do have and what if offers unique and a reason to seek it out. Having an incubator space where small startups can feed off each other and cross pollinate seems to me to be something that would give you an edge over an empty box at the foot of Airbles Road.

You tap into every resource and grant going, local and national and pan UK. You sell the NLC the residents around FP moaning less, you offer a solution to their concert hall conundrum and you offer an anchor project to stimulate the Ravenscraig site.

For me to be truly unique you need to push the boat out yet always have doing it cost effectively at the heart of it. I'd have it only the second covered grass football pitch in the UK (Millenium Stadium), I'd have that pitch removable so the space can be used for all sorts of events. I'd specify agricultural/industrial design and materials but do it in a way that's it's celebrated. I'd make the site one large power generator, ground source bored hot water to solar and have it export energy. Of course each one of the makes the price increase due to their perceived complexity but if done right and properly researched it can be done for much less than some think.

[joewarkfanclub]

11 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

I appreciate your reticence and there's a host of horror stories of a chairman's ego making a club homeless and a shiny new stadium hosting zero events and quickly turning into the set from the Last of Us (Darlington, Kassam Oxford).

I think we are unique in our league that two teams suck up so much support from the glory hunting/perpetuating the religious bullshit among our population. That also takes competitiveness and money from communities around the country which they go on to complain about.

To put it as simply as possible, for every 1,000 seats we make available to the OF multiplied how often we play them at home over two seasons being seven (six guaranteed and one normally post split, plus an odd cup tie) and an average ticket price £24 (£30 minus 20% VAT) over a 20 year mortgage is £1.7m before you factor inflation which would take it closer to £2m. Give the OF an extra 5,000 seats to add to the 4,800 they get already we've realised £10m in revenue.

Not only that the stadium would benefit from an uplift in home support due to the novelty factor of it being new.

McDiarmid Park makes something like £1.2m from non match day hospitality and function hire. It seems every funeral in Perth goes back there for their sausage rolls and cakes. Even if we realise half of that on top of what we currently pull in, that's massive. Matchday hospitality would go up two or threefold with a modern offering.

You mention the office space, covid allowed for a lot more home working and while there's still a need for it, it's not as essential as it was before. However, you then have to make the office space you do have and what if offers unique and a reason to seek it out. Having an incubator space where small startups can feed off each other and cross pollinate seems to me to be something that would give you an edge over an empty box at the foot of Airbles Road.

You tap into every resource and grant going, local and national and pan UK. You sell the NLC the residents around FP moaning less, you offer a solution to their concert hall conundrum and you offer an anchor project to stimulate the Ravenscraig site.

For me to be truly unique you need to push the boat out yet always have doing it cost effectively at the heart of it. I'd have it only the second covered grass football pitch in the UK (Millenium Stadium), I'd have that pitch removable so the space can be used for all sorts of events. I'd specify agricultural/industrial design and materials but do it in a way that's it's celebrated. I'd make the site one large power generator, ground source bored hot water to solar and have it export energy. Of course each one of the makes the price increase due to their perceived complexity but if done right and properly researched it can be done for much less than some think.

Sounds fantastic.

But much like last season, we are programmed to believe we cant have nice shiny things.

And even if we do, we dont get to keep them long.

Id love this to be the exception.....

[stv]

47 minutes ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

I appreciate your reticence and there's a host of horror stories of a chairman's ego making a club homeless and a shiny new stadium hosting zero events and quickly turning into the set from the Last of Us (Darlington, Kassam Oxford).

I think we are unique in our league that two teams suck up so much support from the glory hunting/perpetuating the religious bullshit among our population. That also takes competitiveness and money from communities around the country which they go on to complain about.

To put it as simply as possible, for every 1,000 seats we make available to the OF multiplied how often we play them at home over two seasons being seven (six guaranteed and one normally post split, plus an odd cup tie) and an average ticket price £24 (£30 minus 20% VAT) over a 20 year mortgage is £1.7m before you factor inflation which would take it closer to £2m. Give the OF an extra 5,000 seats to add to the 4,800 they get already we've realised £10m in revenue.

Not only that the stadium would benefit from an uplift in home support due to the novelty factor of it being new.

McDiarmid Park makes something like £1.2m from non match day hospitality and function hire. It seems every funeral in Perth goes back there for their sausage rolls and cakes. Even if we realise half of that on top of what we currently pull in, that's massive. Matchday hospitality would go up two or threefold with a modern offering.

You mention the office space, covid allowed for a lot more home working and while there's still a need for it, it's not as essential as it was before. However, you then have to make the office space you do have and what if offers unique and a reason to seek it out. Having an incubator space where small startups can feed off each other and cross pollinate seems to me to be something that would give you an edge over an empty box at the foot of Airbles Road.

You tap into every resource and grant going, local and national and pan UK. You sell the NLC the residents around FP moaning less, you offer a solution to their concert hall conundrum and you offer an anchor project to stimulate the Ravenscraig site.

For me to be truly unique you need to push the boat out yet always have doing it cost effectively at the heart of it. I'd have it only the second covered grass football pitch in the UK (Millenium Stadium), I'd have that pitch removable so the space can be used for all sorts of events. I'd specify agricultural/industrial design and materials but do it in a way that's it's celebrated. I'd make the site one large power generator, ground source bored hot water to solar and have it export energy. Of course each one of the makes the price increase due to their perceived complexity but if done right and properly researched it can be done for much less than some think.

Are you Ed Milliband in disguise 🥸 

[Goggles & Flippers]

43 minutes ago, stv said:

Are you Ed Milliband in disguise 🥸 

How did you guess ... let me have a go back .... Kevin Bridges?

[stv]

1 hour ago, Goggles & Flippers said:

How did you guess ... let me have a go back .... Kevin Bridges?

No Garrion Bridges

[weeyin]

45 minutes ago, stv said:

No Garrion Bridges

Grizzly's jokes starting to spread like a virus here.

[Happyhonest]

I think what has happened with the seats being replaced shows two competing issues. One that the stadium isn’t fit for purpose in that folk can’t get up and down the row without folk cutting their legs and two has the decision and renovation of the seats led to a lack of confidence in any new stadium design? 

Dundee  just released images of a face lift to their stadium and it looks good  

 

I’m starting to come round to a new stadium with new facilities   Could even put in it fan zones kids stuff  even conference facilities which the team can use or other stuff not fitted into the training ground facilities  I will make up my mind though after I see how the training facility worked out  

As a side note what happened to the standing sections at the football? 

[steelman1991]

9 minutes ago, Happyhonest said:

Dundee  just released images of a face lift to their stadium and it looks good  

 

Think that was a brand new stadium in Camperdown?

[Spiderpig]

7 minutes ago, Happyhonest said:

I think what has happened with the seats being replaced shows two competing issues. One that the stadium isn’t fit for purpose in that folk can’t get up and down the row without folk cutting their legs and two has the decision and renovation of the seats led to a lack of confidence in any new stadium design? 
 

The overwhelming concensus so far re the "seat upgrades" in the POD seems to be that it has been a shambles and resulted in the pod now having the worst seats in the stadium. For me i hope the club are taking note and acknowloging an error has been made.

The only decent response would be to admit the error and try to resolve the issue asap, if that means ripping the new seats out and replacing them with a proper fit for purpose seat then so be it.

I know the ST prices were partially standardised over the 3 home stands,but now those fans in the pod are paying a premium price for the worst seats in the stadium, which is a disgrace.

[wellfan]

It’s not the first time the club has got a stadium “upgrade” badly wrong in recent years.

[Kmcalpin]

We all know the issues with the POD and the need to install temporary seating. However, unless I've missed something, we haven't been told the timescale. What does temporary mean? Is it 9 months, a year or even 2 or 3? Not an issue in theory, but if the seats are uncomfortable and causing injuries and disruption then yes, it is an issue. The answer is obviously linked to bigger matters. 

[Well-Made]

1 hour ago, steelman1991 said:

Think that was a brand new stadium in Camperdown?

Dundee FC submit documents for Camperdown Stadium Project - Dundee Football Club - Official Website it is indeed. This must mean they have sorted out their traffic issue as Transport Scotland blocked it previously. This would also have to be considered where we move to as well as the stadium, so we don't get hold ups with them.

I love FP but the one thing I do hate is the amount of time it takes to get out after a game, even a Non OF game these days. by car. It was okay when the Police had traffic control in place at the roundabouts but not now.

On the office space, I am still working from home and the company have a contract with Spaces where they pay x a month for a meeting room holding 12 around 12 people with use of single desks as and when required. It means that if we need to take a call with a customer or a manager hosts a face to face team meeting we have that space. If you are just looking for somewhere to sit and work, you can. For a seat we only need to let the Company contact know 24hrs before and they book the desk for you. They can also book a seat if for example your Broadband goes down. They have a cafe in the place as well.

I am not saying we go down that route ourselves but maybe Spaces or some other company may rent it for use..

I think whichever way we go there will be folk against it fans, locals etc. Did I not see the residents in Dalziel complain about the training complex?

[El Grew]

Personally, I feel Fir Park has outlived its usefulness as a stadium, fit not only for now, but more importantly, for the future and I would prefer we had a brand new stadium to fit that remit, however as others have said, this is not as simple to achieve as it sounds.

A number of clubs have fully financed a new stadium by selling their existing stadium to large supermarket chains.

I don’t think that would be possible for us. Fir Park sits in one of the most desirable residential areas of the town and its likely any sale of the land it sits on, may be limited to builders for a residential development. This could be highly problematical (look at the furore that surrounded the siting of a Tim Hortons in Knowetop Avenue) and it’s doubtful such a sale would gain approval from the local council and even if it did, it would not generate the level of income required to fully finance a new-build stadium.

[stv]

27 minutes ago, El Grew said:

Personally, I feel Fir Park has outlived its usefulness as a stadium, fit not only for now, but more importantly, for the future and I would prefer we had a brand new stadium to fit that remit, however as others have said, this is not as simple to achieve as it sounds.

A number of clubs have fully financed a new stadium by selling their existing stadium to large supermarket chains.

I don’t think that would be possible for us. Fir Park sits in one of the most desirable residential areas of the town and its likely any sale of the land it sits on, may be limited to builders for a residential development. This could be highly problematical (look at the furore that surrounded the siting of a Tim Hortons in Knowetop Avenue) and it’s doubtful such a sale would gain approval from the local council and even if it did, it would not generate the level of income required to fully finance a new-build stadium.

I think that's just about right why we should stay ,improve and not lumber the club with massive costs for a new site and stadium. We own the stadium ,a new stadium would be rented ,mortgaged or some daft lease back scheme where we would never actually own it. We would probably hve to call it, sponsors name,stadium as well .Putting us in a vurnable position in bad times. Stay and upgrade for me. The most cost effective and keep the legacy going.

[Goggles & Flippers]

2 hours ago, Well-Made said:

I think whichever way we go there will be folk against it fans, locals etc. Did I not see the residents in Dalziel complain about the training complex?

One did who lived a street away from those who were contacted as they backed onto the road that takes people into the complex (and importantly) into the hotel.

Ultimate NIMBY with pretty wild claims and tenuous links.

1 hour ago, El Grew said:

Personally, I feel Fir Park has outlived its usefulness as a stadium, fit not only for now, but more importantly, for the future and I would prefer we had a brand new stadium to fit that remit, however as others have said, this is not as simple to achieve as it sounds.

A number of clubs have fully financed a new stadium by selling their existing stadium to large supermarket chains.

I don’t think that would be possible for us. Fir Park sits in one of the most desirable residential areas of the town and its likely any sale of the land it sits on, may be limited to builders for a residential development. This could be highly problematical (look at the furore that surrounded the siting of a Tim Hortons in Knowetop Avenue) and it’s doubtful such a sale would gain approval from the local council and even if it did, it would not generate the level of income required to fully finance a new-build stadium.

I think supermarket chains buying up ground for town centre access was a very 90's phenomenon. In reality the cost to demolish and dispose of the FP site, I'm not sure there would be multiple millions left in the pot, looking at the housing estate(s) on the old college site, you're looking at 70 to 100 homes if following the same density. I also think the astro would have to be gifted to Knowetop to grease the council wheels. Certainly would get massive majority of local support from current residents.

Anything we do at Fir Park would be bound up in the weeds for years with planning and residents groups. Remember they kicked off about a 5G add on to the floodlights.

Let's not overlook the proposed training facility in Muirhouse was shelved because some residents Trojan Horsed the Bullfrog pub team as a reason not to build two pitches and a academy base. Talk about not getting it would raise up the neighbourhood.

In the 90's Chapman and Dickie rightly exploited the OF, by doing so they gave us a lopsided stadium. I've seen people advocating that the top tier should be removed to bring it in line with the rest of FP without realising that in the 30 years we've had the South/McLean that 2nd tier has earned the club well in excess of an extra £8m over a single tier (2,400) stand even when adjusted for inflation and VAT taken off.

For me the best solution to to continue to exploit the green and blue pound and get their glory hunters to unwittingly finance any new stadium. Take a current OF game as the datum. Match it and we go along with same income as we already achieve. Everything above it is for want of a better word, 'gravy'. All final values in brackets are a conservative amount we could realise over th 20 year lifespan of a mortgage:

£5m down from player sales in summer 2025 and summer 2026.

A rule of thumb is 1,000 seats x 3.5 games a season x 20 years x £24 (£30 average seat price for cat A - 20% VAT) = £1.7m. It's safe to say a £33 adult ticket in 2026 will be closer to £50 in 2046 so over the borrowing lifespan it's £2m. So 10,000 away capacity (£10m)

Assume we maintain our standard 5.5k home fans and look to grow that by 2k (some of that is already happening due to Jens bounce) there's £2-4m from home fans alone but I'd argue beyond 5.5k we're a more fickle bunch and anti-football like Alexander would greatly affect our home gate. (£3m)

Hearts certainly for the next few years look as if they will exceed the current 4,800 of the South/McLean allocation and of course early round cup ties against any of those three. (£3m)

Increased uptake of matchday and hospitality spaces, more hires during weekdays could see easily £500k to £1m a year, multiply up x20, it's £8-16m (with VAT taken off). (£10m)

Ensure the building takes advantage of what it needs for matchdays and sweat those assets the other 340 days a year such as the main restaurant, coffee shop, kitchens. (£3m)

Co-locate with the proposed training facility, £2-3m put funds into the wider stadium project/pitches we own. (£2m)

Naming rights, reduction in maintenance costs, renting stadium to SPFL/SFA for cup ties, womens and U21/U18 games all add up over 20 years. £250k per year seem fair? (£4m)

There would be servicing the debt of £35m of course. And any relegation upsets the apple cart for hopefully a season.

 

Ambitious but all achievable, all that has things at £40m before you consider dropping in a million or two into the pot over the next 20 years when we make hay during a period of lucrative player sales as we are currently experiencing.

 

Then you start looking at the costs for other things and see if you can justify them at the initial design phase, everything should be on the table, not limited by fears until the numbers are ran. All these are multi-million pound investments and considerations but if you can make a business case for it and project that the income generated exceeds the cost, then you introduce it to the design phase.

Roof - Depends on material and complexity, acoustic baffling, mounted grow lights, maintenance costs of pitch.

Roof benefits - no games postponed, 24-7/365 space, banquets, concerts, exhibitions, other sports, ceremonies, beer festivals, novelty/uniqueness.

Removable Pitch - Either full or broken down and moved outside. Bring in a astroturf pitch, exhibition hall carpet

 

 

[joewarkfanclub]

54 minutes ago, stv said:

I think that's just about right why we should stay ,improve and not lumber the club with massive costs for a new site and stadium. We own the stadium ,a new stadium would be rented ,mortgaged or some daft lease back scheme where we would never actually own it. We would probably hve to call it, sponsors name,stadium as well .Putting us in a vurnable position in bad times. Stay and upgrade for me. The most cost effective and keep the legacy going.

Is it the most cost effective though?

The ongoing maintenance costs on a ageing stadium only ever go up.

The POD is creaking at present and will ultimately be followed by the other stands in the near future.

The current site also limits drastically our ability to monetise the stadium on a daily basis and grow our business in a way that would remove any annual shortfall without selling players.

Its not as simple as just not putting the club into debt.

We could play it safe and it would probably see us good in the medium term (beyond my lifetime for sure) but it would be nice to aspire to something more.

Regardless, isnt it a great debate to be having?

[Kmcalpin]

Out of interest  what would the maintenance costs over 30 years be, if we remain at Fir Park? We'll start with demolition and replacement of the POD then the Hunter Stand. 

[Goggles & Flippers]

57 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Out of interest  what would the maintenance costs over 30 years be, if we remain at Fir Park? We'll start with demolition and replacement of the POD then the Hunter Stand. 

Roof and lower tier seats in McLean probably a more pressing issue but your point is on the money … literally.

[stv]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Is it the most cost effective though?

The ongoing maintenance costs on a ageing stadium only ever go up.

The POD is creaking at present and will ultimately be followed by the other stands in the near future.

The current site also limits drastically our ability to monetise the stadium on a daily basis and grow our business in a way that would remove any annual shortfall without selling players.

Its not as simple as just not putting the club into debt.

We could play it safe and it would probably see us good in the medium term (beyond my lifetime for sure) but it would be nice to aspire to something more.

Regardless, isnt it a great debate to be having?

Maintenance costs on a new build could be very expensive as well . Anyone who thinks all the modern building methods and sustainable energy sources and systems are flawless are kidding themselves on and may not even last any length of time without problems. I would quote the new hospitals , office buildings and colleges throughout the land which need money thrown at them after only 10 odd years.

But that would be the balancing act between choosing new build or old. 

[weeyin]

I'm on board in theory with the new stadium idea,

I'd really want to see the numbers, though. I like the idea of having office space, conference and event facilities etc. for rent, but we'd need to approach the finances of that pretty conservatively so we don't end up with, to mix my metaphors, a money pit of a white elephant.