The Alfred Johansson Thread

[Kmcalpin]

Quietest I've seen our part of the POD for many a game. Many regulars not there and empty seats.

[star sail]

So you are saying they have jacked it after 3 poor results, one of which was at Ibrox?

[stv]

No .  Sunday KO 12 noon and playing Celic is what keeps folk away.

[FirParkCornerExile]

34 minutes ago, wellup83 said:

I know that. I just thought the home stands looked a bit down on numbers to what we've seen recently and a possible explanation why. Nothing to do with fans deserting.

The club now count season ticket holders whether they attend or not.

The stands were emptier today and I don't think there were 10682 actually in the ground. I suspect quite a few season ticket holders gave this home game a miss because a combination of it now being the most toxic game, with the most poisonous atmosphere on our fixture list as well as it being moved to 12pm on a Sunday. 

So far the home crowds have held up well with an average of 7700 excluding European games, however that will get worse if we don't start getting our act together.

My biggest concern this season so far is for the first time in 25 years, ironically, we've actually been able to spend money and so far on whats showing we've got fuck all for nearly £2million spent.

 

[robsterwood]

Not heard stand up and sing for a while

[star sail]

16 minutes ago, stv said:

No .  Sunday KO 12 noon and playing Celic is what keeps folk away.

Agreed but I don't think that was the point that was being made. 

 

[David]

3 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

Question also to all the AJ haters and that he should be punted.....who do we bring in?

More importantly, if we bin him any time soon, how easy will it be to find a replacement of JBA's quality? One thing you notice about clubs that have a quick trigger finger when it comes to managers is that it becomes progressively more difficult to convince high-quality candidates to fill the role. 

Let's say we lose to Killie and the board send him packing, as I've seen a few on here saying could happen (it obviously won't, but let's play along for now). What does the board say to potential new managers when they rightfully ask, "You brought the last guy in and gave him ten games to get up to speed before binning him. He came to Scotland from Europe, uprooted his life and that of his family, tried to implement a way of playing, and he got zero time to really do that. Why would I risk my reputation on that kind of approach and job?"

There's a reason why we are now attracting players like Jardell Kanga, Lukas Fadinger, and Elijah Just instead of Conor Wilkinson, Josh Morris & Rolando Aarons. And it's not because they're coming here with the expectations of playing under a manager who played the game for lower-league English teams, or who set up to be "formidable" and hard to beat.

It's because of our entire approach, which includes being known as a club that gives managers the time required to show they can either do the job, or they can't. I can't recall the last manager we sacked who could reasonably have said they didn't get time. Our track record there is good.

Alfred Johansson might not be the guy for the job. Or he might be. But ten games in is absolutely too early to make that decision. He'll get until after Christmas for sure, then we'll take a look. 

For me, I'm looking for us to be playing some decent football and in the discussion for top six around that time. If not, then we'll need to look and see what's going on. 

[SteelmaninOZ]

Think we should give him a wee bit more time like we did with Jens

[Great Balls of Shire]

1 hour ago, FirParkCornerExile said:

The club now count season ticket holders whether they attend or not.

The stands were emptier today and I don't think there were 10682 actually in the ground. I suspect quite a few season ticket holders gave this home game a miss because a combination of it now being the most toxic game, with the most poisonous atmosphere on our fixture list as well as it being moved to 12pm on a Sunday. 

So far the home crowds have held up well with an average of 7700 excluding European games, however that will get worse if we don't start getting our act together.

My biggest concern this season so far is for the first time in 25 years, ironically, we've actually been able to spend money and so far on whats showing we've got fuck all for nearly £2million spent.

 

I have a st but didnt go , I dont have any inclination to go and be amongst Celtic fans , its a task hearing it all on TV.

Ive seen the banner on FB that was in the block e area too although it wasnt being displayed by the official block e. Very important distinction. 

That's a fn red neck, its like something celtic would display,  saw  one comment on FB saying " banner fc" at it again.

First time they have a problem, they will be wanting the cops to attend.

All these things make it not such a good way to spend a Sunday, thats before we get to the fitba.

[grizzlyg]

Of our last 4 games,  2 against old firm where usually we don't get points. Aberdeen home was brutal from 38 mins onwards and Dundee away not helped by Paulsen abd bad mistakes.

It's so obvious we are missing Koutrombis and Priestman.  Need them back quickly. AJ needs to work out a formation players are comfortable with and don't put square pegs in round holes  

As has been said before he is watching these players in training all the time so maybe a reason he went with Vogt,  maybe his attitude and effort in training is better than others. Yesterday however its clear he is nowhere a start.  Said needs to start next game.

[Great Balls of Shire]

15 hours ago, wellfan said:

Yeh. The difference was that, under JBA, you could see what the team was trying to do from the very start of his tenure. There was an identity. The same can’t be said for the start of Alfred’s tenure, and that’s my biggest concern.

The jury is definitely out on alf but points wise we are similar to last year.

There were definitely posters on here saying jba was on a shaky nail, would be good if someone can find them.

Will be good also to get Iscar back, haven't seen much from Levitt so far.

[grizzlyg]

7 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

The jury is definitely out on alf but points wise we are similar to last year.

There were definitely posters on here saying jba was on a shaky nail, would be good if someone can find them.

Will be good also to get Iscar back, haven't seen much from Levitt so far.

Levitt was quiet yesterday but mind you Faddy had a poor game and Lowry not at his best.  Wee Oscar is missed badly 

[star sail]

What I find slightly depressing about this situation is just how quickly the mood changes.

A month ago most Motherwell fans thought we were heading to Ibrox to beat Rangers. In hindsight that was a poor call. As fans, we misjudged the situation on the basis that we had a relatively positive European campaign and Rangers a relatively poor one. The key word is relatively and as fans we judged the situation on an emotional basis rather than a pragmatic basis. 

In reality Motherwell's performance did not suddenly dive off a cliff that weekend. The expectation was unrealistic based on flimsy evidence.

A month later and the same fans who misjudged a situation then are starting to consider a change of manager based on the same flimsy hunches and armchair football philosophy.

What is worse is that we are no better as a collective than OF fans. Before that game at Ibrox a month ago, there was a significant voice growing from the Rangers support to sack Derek McIness. A month later and McIness is manager of the month and Rangers fans are dreaming of winning the league. The only thing this really tells us is that those fans calling for McIness to go got it wrong a month back.

Celtic are no better. Wanting to sack one of the best managers in Celtics history at the first sign of trouble ( trouble being losing to Rangers twice).

It is pathetic to watch from afar when we see it in the OF fans.

Lose to Kilmarnock next week and I think we could genuinely be back to Kettlewell levels of toxicity within certain sections of the support. We saw it with Kettlewell, Alexander, Hammell, Robinson, Baraclough and on and on.

It is easy to buy into the new way when things are going well, to laugh at all the dinosaurs in Scottish football but let's see the commitment to the new way now that we have entered rough waters. 

 

 

 

 

 

[wellfan]

People keep banging on about the similar points tally so far, but that misses the point entirely. Under JBA, there was a clear identity from day one. Alfred keeps talking about a transition phase, and that's fair enough. Nobody expects him to replicate what JBA achieved. But a transition has to show signs of taking you somewhere, and we're seeing absolutely none. If anything, we're moving further and further away from what was good about us under JBA, and we've looked increasingly clueless the longer Alfred's had the players on the training pitch.

I said he'd rightly be given time, but time is worthless if there's no sign of progress. We're getting worse, the same glaring weaknesses persist, and he seems either incapable of addressing them or too stubborn to change anything. I don't expect another JBA season. I expect a team that looks like it has a clue what it's doing. I expect decent performances even in defeat. 

I'm struggling to see what anyone thinks we're waiting for. Alfred looks increasingly out of his depth. And this isn't a plea for him to be sacked, nor is it a desire to return to the 'dinosaur' style that some keep referring to, as if this is some sort of modern football versus dinosaur football debate. Calling a spade a spade isn't creating toxicity either. The situation is plain to see for me, and if others can't see it, I think they're allowing the transition argument to overshadow some pretty obvious problems.

This is also an entirely different situation from the ones we found ourselves in under Alexander, Hammell, Kettlewell et al. The needle has shifted since then, and I don't think criticism of Alfred should automatically be lumped in with the discontent that surrounded those managers.

A defeat to Killie this weekend, coupled with another poor performance and no evidence that Alfred is learning from his mistakes, will only accelerate what is increasingly starting to feel inevitable.

[joewarkfanclub]

I think there is merit in a lot of what Star Sail AND Wellfan are saying.

There is no doubt in my mind that our support is no better or worse than other clubs. Football fans in general are fickle and behave in similar tribalistic ways.

However, I think we have to differentiate between considered debate (which I think has been the case for the most part on here) and some of the rampant toxicity you get on other social media platforms, where folks just vent their spleen.

I do worry about the atmosphere at the ground though, as it hasnt taken long for the positivity and big crowds to drift away. The Helsinki game was only a month ago!

I get the whole transition debate and Alfred should 100% be given the time to turn this around and show us what a team in his image is going to look like. But he is going to have to find some improvements quickly.

That mind not mean winning loads of gamed in a swashbuckling style. But it has to show improved performances, more structure, some evidence that the players are taking on board the coaching.

Thats what allowed Jens to get a pretty easy ride over the first couple of months. The naysayers and more vocal element in our support were kept quiet by performances, not results.

Hopefully Alfred can find some of that soon.

[grizzlyg]

10 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I think there is merit in a lot of what Star Sail AND Wellfan are saying.

There is no doubt in my mind that our support is no better or worse than other clubs. Football fans in general are fickle and behave in similar tribalistic ways.

However, I think we have to differentiate between considered debate (which I think has been the case for the most part on here) and some of the rampant toxicity you get on other social media platforms, where folks just vent their spleen.

I do worry about the atmosphere at the ground though, as it hasnt taken long for the positivity and big crowds to drift away. The Helsinki game was only a month ago!

I get the whole transition debate and Alfred should 100% be given the time to turn this around and show us what a team in his image is going to look like. But he is going to have to find some improvements quickly.

That mind not mean winning loads of gamed in a swashbuckling style. But it has to show improved performances, more structure, some evidence that the players are taking on board the coaching.

Thats what allowed Jens to get a pretty easy ride over the first couple of months. The naysayers and more vocal element in our support were kept quiet by performances, not results.

Hopefully Alfred can find some of that soon.

On here is definitely more balanced and folk giving their reasons.  I just avoid Facebook as would end up getting rattled.

We are seeing just how special a manager we had last season. Was always going to be hard for who replaced him.  My concerns are we have spent a lot of money and product on pitch not matching that.

I am very much in give AJ time but he needs to stop over complicating things and get the line up correct. At same time the players need to look at themselves as a good few are not performing. 

COYW

[Wellfan91]

People comparing everything to "Jens was the same this time last year" is a mental comparison - yes we struggled for WINS during that period but you could see what he was trying to do, and weren't getting turned over 4-0 by Aberdeen.

I cannot see what Alf is trying to do, we play 3 sideways passes then hoof it up the park. We are slow in transition, offer nothing upfront, all over the place at the back and his ethos of finding positives in every defeat and not making subs until we are out of the game just put him up there with the likes of Critchley at Hearts - as a youth team manager at best. 

Nobody wants him to fail, we all want him to be a success, gave him the benefit of the doubt against Stenny but since then we have got significantly worse and I haven't seen anything that suggests more time on the training ground is making us better, it's the oppopsite.

[star sail]

42 minutes ago, wellfan said:

People keep banging on about the similar points tally so far, but that misses the point entirely. Under JBA, there was a clear identity from day one. 

 

I agree with this. The point tally is in some ways meaningless at the moment. There was a clear sign of progress under JBA that we are not seeing at the moment. Also we were still in the League Cup.

Where I struggle with the comparison is that I think time will prove JBA to be an exceptional manager who will go to the very top of the game. I don't think we will have a manager of his capability any time soon (if ever again).We are comparing the new manager against a very high bar. I think we have to be very careful about doing that. We are not going to replace JBA.

On points total, it is interesting to watch the trajectory of Toulouse at this time. I think they are sitting 14th in the French league with a significant amount of draws. It is a very similar situation to the one last season at Motherwell. I think we can be reasonably confident that Toulouse will finish much higher than 14. 

We cannot have the same confidence in Motherwell's future because we simply are not dealing with the same quality of manager, however that does not mean we are in a terminal situation. 

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, star sail said:

It is easy to buy into the new way when things are going well, to laugh at all the dinosaurs in Scottish football but let's see the commitment to the new way now that we have entered rough waters. 

In terms of style, as opposed to results, we have moved on since the Kettlewell / Alexander dynasties. This was particularly true of last season. This season not so much. Yesterday we saw no high press, no intensity, low possession stats, increasing use of direct football, and passive deep defending. 

I've seen a few calls for AJ to go elsewhere, on social media, but not a lot. I have however seen many expressions of growing concern and thats perfectly justified. 

AJ's post match presser had the alarm bells ringing for me, as it did with a few others; especially about doubling down on team selection. I get that many managers do that but it affects their credibility with the fans when they refuse to admit errors. We are quite capable of seeing when things go wrong. AJ needs to be more open and honest with the support.   There's no need to go into detail about individual players but come on. Recently Jim Goodwin at Tannadice did just that after a defeat. He said that whilst his players had to take some responsibility he held his hands up and admitted he got things wrong in pre match planning. 

[El Grew]

I’m prepared to give the manager time but he really needs to start showing that he knows what he’s doing.

However, from what I’ve seen and heard from him so far, it seems to me that his football knowledge has been gleaned from textbooks and coaching manuals. He looks well short on man-management ability and based on our recent performances, I fear the players are starting to doubt him.

[Prestwickwell]

Next 5 games are absolutely massive for him 

 

don’t expect us to take anything from hearts but the rest are absolutely winnable 

 

like others have said we need to start seeing some style of football whatever that is & a clear plan 

 

for me I’m not comparing him to last year ( it’s an impossible task & was never going to be the same )

 

I’m judging him based on what I’m watching, time will tell 

[wellfan]

34 minutes ago, El Grew said:

I’m prepared to give the manager time but he really needs to start showing that he knows what he’s doing.

However, from what I’ve seen and heard from him so far, it seems to me that his football knowledge has been gleaned from textbooks and coaching manuals. He looks well short on man-management ability and based on our recent performances, I fear the players are starting to doubt him.

He seems to spend a lot of time angrily shouting from the dugout, as plenty of managers do. But as I’ve said before, respect is earned, not demanded.

[mfc88]

18 hours ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

I have a st but didnt go , I dont have any inclination to go and be amongst Celtic fans , its a task hearing it all on TV.

Ive seen the banner on FB that was in the block e area too although it wasnt being displayed by the official block e. Very important distinction. 

That's a fn red neck, its like something celtic would display,  saw  one comment on FB saying " banner fc" at it again.

First time they have a problem, they will be wanting the cops to attend.

All these things make it not such a good way to spend a Sunday, thats before we get to the fitba.

To be fair, there was a very good post highlighting the sign on block E facebook page, which pointed to scottish womens aid charity and helpline i.e. more focussed on help for any victims.

In the moment, the sign didn't necessarily come across like that, I would agree.

[grizzlyg]

I am probably over analysing as per usual but here's another take on things.

AJ was 2 1/2 years in Rosenborg seat so this isn't his first job so hopefully has gained experience to fix this bad run of form.  Also i am curious as to the conversations with Rogers and other coaching staff, you would hope they are singing from same songsheet though admittedly totally out of tune at moment.

IF.......dons had won say 2-0 and yesterday Said or JT had started instead of Willy would there have been same anger? I am not so sure.   It was painful watching Vogt yesterday but he has obviously been working hard on training ground to prove he deserved a chance....it didnt work and AJ should have subbed him at half time. Instead it just created more tension in the stands.

I am only concerned about us but there are other teams in bad run..check highlights of hearts v st mirren to see how brutal buddies were.

If we can get Oscar, JK, Captain Paul and I am not a fan but I think we missed RCC yesterday on left hand side,  then the squad is stronger.    Buck stops with AJ but the players also need to step up and we need the experienced ones rallying them.

Yes its a mini crisis at moment but beat killie and it lifts us 6pts clear of them.  We need the away support to get right behind the team.  Yesterday was very flat though nothing on pitch to get us excited.

COYW

[Motherwell Daft]

I agree with posters on here that AJ has not picked what most of us know are the strongest players in the correct positions with some crazy thoughts of the Volt on Sunday, but equally we don’t see training sessions, I think if he was to put out the strongest team against all oppositions and get the press and energy right, then the occasions when we go long are a change to the sideways passes and I felt that with Seb’s pace on Sunday could have posed the tic CH’s problems, but I also want these all too often back passes and allowing teams to re group stopping, we need to work as a team which is sorely lacking, we need to be much much harder to play against, that mentality of playing forward and defending in packs has gone, AJ surely knows what needs to be done, I sincerely hope he takes it and soon!