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2020/21 Transfer Discussion Thread

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10 hours ago, Lobey_Dosser said:

That doesn’t work in reality. Sign players of that value and they’ll burst the wage structure multiple times over. The key is to try and unearth a few gems (e.g £30k Moult) with plenty potential but it’s easier said than  done, 

Wrong. Investing 1m is similar to what I also posted. That doesn’t necessarily mean spunking 1 m on fees, it means using a mil on a combination of fees and salary rather than using presumably having an even lower player budget than last season (at least I pray McGinley and Lamie aren’t earning anywhere near the same as Hartley and Tait). There has been absolutely no visible squad investment which considering we must’ve raked in about 5million in player sales during 2020 is a bit of a piss take for a fan owned club.

short term contracts on punts from English lower leagues is exactly what has got us into this mess. 

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2 hours ago, Kmac said:

Wrong. Investing 1m is similar to what I also posted. That doesn’t necessarily mean spunking 1 m on fees, it means using a mil on a combination of fees and salary rather than using presumably having an even lower player budget than last season (at least I pray McGinley and Lamie aren’t earning anywhere near the same as Hartley and Tait). There has been absolutely no visible squad investment which considering we must’ve raked in about 5million in player sales during 2020 is a bit of a piss take for a fan owned club.

short term contracts on punts from English lower leagues is exactly what has got us into this mess. 

White, Hastie, Polworth, and Lamie were signed from Scottish clubs, Carroll, Moult, Aldred, Hartley, Tait from English lower league clubs. It’s not that black and white. As ever it’s about what playing budget the manager has available to him, the bigger the budget the more opportunity to sign better quality players regardless of where they are playing.

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2 hours ago, Kmac said:

Wrong. Investing 1m is similar to what I also posted. That doesn’t necessarily mean spunking 1 m on fees, it means using a mil on a combination of fees and salary rather than using presumably having an even lower player budget than last season (at least I pray McGinley and Lamie aren’t earning anywhere near the same as Hartley and Tait). There has been absolutely no visible squad investment which considering we must’ve raked in about 5million in player sales during 2020 is a bit of a piss take for a fan owned club.

short term contracts on punts from English lower leagues is exactly what has got us into this mess. 

Not discounting no squad investment... You do know that transfer fees are rarely upfront payments and paid over the course of contracts?

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We need a keeper, a centre half, a winger and a striker. If that requires ditching O'Donnell and playing Grimmy or Maguire at right back to free up funds so be it.

Getting rid of Long as suggested above would send the correct message that more is expected from the squad. Lasley or the new manager needs to sit down with Liam Polworth and explain that he is heading back to the Championship one way or another if he doesn't get his finger out. If he doesn't pick up this month get him out the door as well as he's a man down at the moment. 

 

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Major overhaul required, we are trying to bring Rolando Aarons back on loan, a player like him/ Ariyibi we’ve missed that kind of creativity in many games this season, first and foremost we start from the back though and go back to basics, players like Grimmy etc should be hunted as well as the likes of lamie, mugabi, Chapman. Harsh reality when you look back that a club like us let go 2 leaders of our squad for a few years in Hartley and Tait to bring in far worse players.

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47 minutes ago, Onthefringes said:

Not discounting no squad investment... You do know that transfer fees are rarely upfront payments and paid over the course of contracts?

Indeed, as would ours to others. There’s also mechanisms for corporate finance which allow for this in terms of salary etc.

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1 hour ago, Kmac said:

Wrong. Investing 1m is similar to what I also posted. That doesn’t necessarily mean spunking 1 m on fees, it means using a mil on a combination of fees and salary rather than using presumably having an even lower player budget than last season (at least I pray McGinley and Lamie aren’t earning anywhere near the same as Hartley and Tait). There has been absolutely no visible squad investment which considering we must’ve raked in about 5million in player sales during 2020 is a bit of a piss take for a fan owned club.

short term contracts on punts from English lower leagues is exactly what has got us into this mess. 

There's a balance to be struck. 

I certainly agree there there should have been more investment in the team, but not necessarily massive investment in the team.

It's because we are fan owned which exactly the reason why they have to show a degree of prudence and not get carried away when they do get a windfall because when tough financial times do come there is no benefactor going to bail them out. They have to be prepared for it with finance in reserve.

They were also pretty clear that some of the money taken in was going towards infrastructure projects. I'll pre-empt that the "the nice new PA system is going to sound lovely in the Championship" responses such talk usually brings but bringing the training facilities up to standard is surely to be welcomed.  I wonder for example where we've been training the last week or so with temperatures barely getting above freezing.

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7 minutes ago, Andy_P said:

There's a balance to be struck. 

I certainly agree there there should have been more investment in the team, but not necessarily massive investment in the team.

It's because we are fan owned which exactly the reason why they have to show a degree of prudence and not get carried away when they do get a windfall because when tough financial times do come there is no benefactor going to bail them out. They have to be prepared for it with finance in reserve.

They were also pretty clear that some of the money taken in was going towards infrastructure projects. I'll pre-empt that the "the nice new PA system is going to sound lovely in the Championship" responses such talk usually brings but bringing the training facilities up to standard is surely to be welcomed.  I wonder for example where we've been training the last week or so with temperatures barely getting above freezing.

What is so wrong with the current training facility at Dalziel though? They get the full use of any grass pitch they like, and the Astro, not bad changing facilities etc, a huge set of land for improvement in the future. Yes there is no gym etc but that’s used at Fir Park anyways which is 10 minutes away and they all travel to and from there for training. For something like a training ground that hasn’t even started planning permission etc, I’d much rather us squeezed whatever possible into keeping us up and the same should have been done at the start of the season, I’m not asking for consistent 3rd place finishes but you expect to improve and try replicate that for a club our size and maintain top 6.

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8 minutes ago, Andy_P said:

There's a balance to be struck. 

I certainly agree there there should have been more investment in the team, but not necessarily massive investment in the team.

It's because we are fan owned which exactly the reason why they have to show a degree of prudence and not get carried away when they do get a windfall because when tough financial times do come there is no benefactor going to bail them out. They have to be prepared for it with finance in reserve.

They were also pretty clear that some of the money taken in was going towards infrastructure projects. I'll pre-empt that the "the nice new PA system is going to sound lovely in the Championship" responses such talk usually brings but bringing the training facilities up to standard is surely to be welcomed.  I wonder for example where we've been training the last week or so with temperatures barely getting above freezing.

I’ll try to answer some of Yorky’s here too.

Perhaps signaling solely English clubs wasn’t correct of me. However, a very quick snapshot of livi or ICT would’ve also hinted that there were severe doubts regarding both Polworth and Lamie (more so the later). White has never played at the top level and Hastie had a purple patch with us before doing nothing for a full season. Basing our entire strategy on ‘punts’ has come home to roost like it was always going to with short contracts and loan deals serving as the base with no youth crop on the horizon. 
We’re a selling club, yes (like everyone bar about 10 clubs in Europe) but I’ve always maintained that our strategy should be a solid 6/7 senior pros with proven pedigree and experience at this level supplemented by the youth, both to secure our positioning and the procession line. At the moment, we have neither.

I completely understand that we have to be prudent. Again I have no qualms over investing in training facilities or keeping cash reserves, but the reality is, we have reinvested nothing to note. Neither burrows or the board came forward following two of our largest player sales in our history with the space of 6 months and said “this is the plan”. 
I’ll repeat it again, we are fan owned, Thus the raison d’etre for us as a club should be maximum fan value which basically means the best possible product  on the park. Neither myself or others who have purchased shares or contribute to the society do so because we feel that there will one day be a buyout and we will make a few quid or indeed, the bank balance is healthy, we just want the team to do well. We are not and have not been strategically acting to the core principals of fan ownership.

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We've a dog's dinner of a squad. Guys like Seedorf who play, disappear, then reappear for 5 minutes before we remember just how poor they are. Cole being brought back smacks of laziness and an obsession with familiarity, while Long only did us the honour of returning because he'd hee haw offers elsewhere. Unfinished business my arse. Any decent players are marking time till they're off and the well looks dry for youngsters. The quick turnover obviously doesn't help, but how many of our current squad do you give a toss about? Or vice versa? 

Robinson and Lasley have both alluded to players who have a problem with their attitude and it's plain to see there's a malaise or discontent about the place right now. Someone knows who they are. Any new guy's first order of business should be getting them to fuck, even before he attempts clearing the purely substandard out.

I'm no sure about Ross either.

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29 minutes ago, Kmac said:

I’ll try to answer some of Yorky’s here too.

Perhaps signaling solely English clubs wasn’t correct of me. However, a very quick snapshot of livi or ICT would’ve also hinted that there were severe doubts regarding both Polworth and Lamie (more so the later). White has never played at the top level and Hastie had a purple patch with us before doing nothing for a full season. Basing our entire strategy on ‘punts’ has come home to roost like it was always going to with short contracts and loan deals serving as the base with no youth crop on the horizon. 
We’re a selling club, yes (like everyone bar about 10 clubs in Europe) but I’ve always maintained that our strategy should be a solid 6/7 senior pros with proven pedigree and experience at this level supplemented by the youth, both to secure our positioning and the procession line. At the moment

I completely understand that we have to be prudent. Again I have no qualms over investing in training facilities or keeping cash reserves, but the reality is, we have reinvested nothing to note. Neither burrows or the board came forward following two of our largest player sales in our history with the space of 6 months and said “this is the plan”. 
I’ll repeat it again, we are fan owned, Thus the raison d’etre for us as a club should be maximum fan value which basically means the best possible product  on the park. Neither myself or others who have purchased shares or contribute to the society do so because we feel that there will one day be a buyout and we will make a few quid or indeed, the bank balance is healthy, we just want the team to do well. We are not and have not been strategically acting to the core principals of fan ownership.

Totally agree here and for most Motherwell fans who are ST holders and WS members like myself, ever since I signed up to the WS away back 2 years ago there is very rarely any updates and dan decisions etc for a so called “fan owned” club and nobody really bothers with decisions off the park when it’s all going well on the park but like at the present when chips are down, serious questions need to be asked. And all fans should have a say no matter if it’s £5, £10, £200 a month etc, 99% of the fans will have the clubs best interests at heart and realise we can’t be spending millions on players of even high hundreds of thousands on players.

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9 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

We've a dog's dinner of a squad. Guys like Seedorf who play, disappear, then reappear for 5 minutes before we remember just how poor they are. Cole being brought back smacks of laziness and an obsession with familiarity, while Long only did us the honour of returning because he'd hee haw offers elsewhere. Unfinished business my arse. Any decent players are marking time till they're off and the well looks dry for youngsters. The quick turnover obviously doesn't help, but how many of our current squad do you give a toss about? Or vice versa? 

Robinson and Lasley have both alluded to players who have a problem with their attitude and it's plain to see there's a malaise or discontent about the place right now. Someone knows who they are. Any new guy's first order of business should be getting them to fuck, even before he attempts clearing the purely substandard out.

I'm no sure about Ross either.

ross is just feckin about trying to look good so he can get a gig at rangurs    only my opinion, based on , heez a rangurs man  !!!!

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33 minutes ago, Kmac said:

I’ll try to answer some of Yorky’s here too.

Perhaps signaling solely English clubs wasn’t correct of me. However, a very quick snapshot of livi or ICT would’ve also hinted that there were severe doubts regarding both Polworth and Lamie (more so the later). White has never played at the top level and Hastie had a purple patch with us before doing nothing for a full season. Basing our entire strategy on ‘punts’ has come home to roost like it was always going to with short contracts and loan deals serving as the base with no youth crop on the horizon. 
We’re a selling club, yes (like everyone bar about 10 clubs in Europe) but I’ve always maintained that our strategy should be a solid 6/7 senior pros with proven pedigree and experience at this level supplemented by the youth, both to secure our positioning and the procession line. At the moment, we have neither.

I completely understand that we have to be prudent. Again I have no qualms over investing in training facilities or keeping cash reserves, but the reality is, we have reinvested nothing to note. Neither burrows or the board came forward following two of our largest player sales in our history with the space of 6 months and said “this is the plan”. 
I’ll repeat it again, we are fan owned, Thus the raison d’etre for us as a club should be maximum fan value which basically means the best possible product  on the park. Neither myself or others who have purchased shares or contribute to the society do so because we feel that there will one day be a buyout and we will make a few quid or indeed, the bank balance is healthy, we just want the team to do well. We are not and have not been strategically acting to the core principals of fan ownership.

Nothing I would take much issue with at all up to the point where you move on to Fan Ownership, at that point our views differ slightly.   We want the team to do as well as it possibly can, of course we all do. But for me the primary responsibility of any board of Motherwell FC is to ensure the ability to trade, with the natural follow on from that the better position we are in financially the better placed we should be to give the resources to the manager to get that that best possible product on the park.

If we do it the way around by then could very quickly be back in a position where you are reliant on punting somebody in January for fear that they leave on  a free just to balance the books until the summer.

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11 minutes ago, supermarv said:

Totally agree here and for most Motherwell fans who are ST holders and WS members like myself, ever since I signed up to the WS away back 2 years ago there is very rarely any updates and dan decisions etc for a so called “fan owned” club and nobody really bothers with decisions off the park when it’s all going well on the park but like at the present when chips are down, serious questions need to be asked. And all fans should have a say no matter if it’s £5, £10, £200 a month etc, 99% of the fans will have the clubs best interests at heart and realise we can’t be spending millions on players of even high hundreds of thousands on players.

You get a say.  If you want a seat on the Well Society board you can put yourself forward for nomination and thereafter one of the other boards until the point where the WS are represented on the club board if you are elected.

You get an opportunity to every month or whatever it is to ask questions of the Well Society online and before Covid-19 had the opportunity to do it in person, as you did with the AGM every year.

You get email every Friday from the Well Society with any items of note.

To suggest fans don't get a say is incorrect.

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It still boggles my brain how misguided people are about the Well Society and the whole fan-owned thing.

As an individual, we effectively subscribe to a donation scheme, that's it. If you think it entitles you to anything...information or otherwise...then you need a wee bit of a reality check.

You own a part of the club in the same way that someones Mrs has a certificate that says she owns a star in the sky.

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18 minutes ago, Andy_P said:

You get a say.  If you want a seat on the Well Society board you can put yourself forward for nomination and thereafter one of the other boards until the point where the WS are represented on the club board if you are elected.

You get an opportunity to every month or whatever it is to ask questions of the Well Society online and before Covid-19 had the opportunity to do it in person, as you did with the AGM every year.

You get email every Friday from the Well Society with any items of note.

To suggest fans don't get a say is incorrect.

I’ve had no email from them except my sign up confirmation and the letter through the door with all the goodies.

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dont know if this has been asked   but where did jordan archer go ?   he looked good  and composed the game i seen him in (aberdeen i think }   so ask the question u want another 6 month gig,tell the butcher heez not good enough at this level sorry ,pay him up ,then we march on to the next dud to get rid off if we have a decent spine in the team we would be getting there,nobody can say that over the next few months we could get as good as yaccies,st midden RC or st j   theres still a few games to play IF we get the finger out our arses     just a wee rant !!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Andy_P said:

Nothing I would take much issue with at all up to the point where you move on to Fan Ownership, at that point our views differ slightly.   We want the team to do as well as it possibly can, of course we all do. But for me the primary responsibility of any board of Motherwell FC is to ensure the ability to trade, with the natural follow on from that the better position we are in financially the better placed we should be to give the resources to the manager to get that that best possible product on the park.

If we do it the way around by then could very quickly be back in a position where you are reliant on punting somebody in January for fear that they leave on  a free just to balance the books until the summer.

@Al B also on this one.

Absolutely agree. Having a free for all ballot on members opinions would be a nightmare and is a non starter. It’s not really my point however. 
My point is that we / the club encourage subscription and membership on the basis that we are a fan owned club. Thus, membership and financial contribution is based on emotional attachment to the club which makes people put their hand in their pocket every month. 
If that is the model and you are aware of that at board level, there has to be a degree of transparency on the larger issues. Yes, we get newsletters etc. but in our circumstances, it without question has to go beyond that. 
@Andy_P I’m not advocating that we break the bank to go and sign players, all I’m suggesting is that you risk fans becoming disenfranchised and thus stopping long term contribution or dissuading further contributors if there isn’t a stated vision for the club. I’m absolutely supportive of the model and requirement of youth supplemented by senior pros who can guide on and off the pitch. Our model recently hasn’t been that however. We’ve ended up with a group of largely journeymen players who appear much at odds with our own business model (ie emotional investment in the club) and that risks having even bigger ramifications to the business model which is fragile on such few members. 
We will always loose our best players unless the Bahrain royal family decides North Lanarkshire is the place to be, but we have consistently pleadEd poverty when quick frankly it has become a nonsense. We know we have no external debt, we know that we budgeted 10th and finished 3rd, we know that we made a million euro from European competition and we know that 2020 transfer fees were touching close to 5 million gbp. Our model however has to be symbiotic, the fans give and the fans receive. At the present moment, that isn’t the case. 
 

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In balance we have gave season ticket holders the best deal of any club through the pandemic.  Refunds offered for last seasons cancellations, streaming matches and this season offering free entry next season to any game they couldn't attend (looking like as far as the split at least).

We couldn't afford to do that if we were spending big money on wages or hadn't received the transfer income we did.

 

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3 hours ago, supermarv said:

Major overhaul required, we are trying to bring Rolando Aarons back on loan, a player like him/ Ariyibi we’ve missed that kind of creativity in many games this season, first and foremost we start from the back though and go back to basics, players like Grimmy etc should be hunted as well as the likes of lamie, mugabi, Chapman. Harsh reality when you look back that a club like us let go 2 leaders of our squad for a few years in Hartley and Tait to bring in far worse players.

Grimshaw is the kind of player to have in the squad to cover for injury or suspension, can cover many positions but unlikely to hold one down long term.  Good for a game at a time.  I think I am suggesting utility reserve, happy to keep him around.

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37 minutes ago, ropy said:

Grimshaw is the kind of player to have in the squad to cover for injury or suspension, can cover many positions but unlikely to hold one down long term.  Good for a game at a time.  I think I am suggesting utility reserve, happy to keep him around.

Yep, I would certainly not let Grimshaw go. Many players take the hump when not playing but he seems to take it in his stride and although limited he’s still pretty reliable.

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4 hours ago, supermarv said:

Major overhaul required, we are trying to bring Rolando Aarons back on loan, a player like him/ Ariyibi we’ve missed that kind of creativity in many games this season, first and foremost we start from the back though and go back to basics, players like Grimmy etc should be hunted as well as the likes of lamie, mugabi, Chapman. Harsh reality when you look back that a club like us let go 2 leaders of our squad for a few years in Hartley and Tait to bring in far worse players.

I hope not,i wasn't overly impressed with Aaron's the first time around,we should get away from this bringing guys back that weren't great first time around,devante cole being the latest.

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29 minutes ago, mfc said:

I hope not,i wasn't overly impressed with Aaron's the first time around,we should get away from this bringing guys back that weren't great first time around,devante cole being the latest.

Unless it is Cedric

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2 hours ago, C&A not the shop said:

In balance we have gave season ticket holders the best deal of any club through the pandemic.  Refunds offered for last seasons cancellations, streaming matches and this season offering free entry next season to any game they couldn't attend (looking like as far as the split at least).

We couldn't afford to do that if we were spending big money on wages or hadn't received the transfer income we did.

 

I'm sure most season ticket holders who were able to  would gladly waive all those benefits if the money saved was used to improve  the squad.

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5 hours ago, steelboy said:

We need a keeper, a centre half, a winger and a striker.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

I'd add a creative midfielder that can score 9 or 10 a season, but those other 3 are a higher priority for January.

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