Kmcalpin

Not as large as you might think. It was widely reported a few years ago that some investors suddenly appeared and gifted United about £6m out of the goodness of their hearts to wipe out their debt. Details however were very vague. It turned out that the investors did not simply gift the 6 million after all but in return for their cash injection were given a large percentage of the transfer income from the sale of players to Celtic.

A lot more could be done to improve refereeing standards in Scots football. The introduction of goal line technology is one must for me. The publication of referee's reports, or at least summarised versions, for fans would also be a step forward. Most fans, me included, have never seen a referee's report. That would help to dispel myths and misunderstandings and would make officials more accountable. Football is a spectator sport after all. The biggest gripe for me is inconsistency, even within the same game. Examples of this would be random and irregular treatment of foul throws; random and irregular treatment of encroachment at penalties; inconsistent definition of and punishment for dissent. I simply cannot understand why we were pulled up 6 times last Saturday for stealing yards at throw ins yet Saints did exactly the same and were not checked once. Red card appeals seem to be a complete lottery from what we have seen. Now refs have a very difficult job to do and have to make split second decisions without the benefit of action replays. In the course of a game they will make mistakes, they are only human after all. But these could be minimised and more consistency achieved. It is a very difficult job and you only have to view post match pictures to see the amount of fouling that goes on during a game eg jersey pulling is very, very common. Another gripe I have is timing/duration of games. It really does seem to be a complete lottery. Time wasting is rarely, if ever taken into account. It was interesting to see that on the opening day of the English lower league card on 5/6 August the number of games in which 6/7 minutes were added on. This is a rarity in Scotland. Are refs biased? I'm sure most aren't but human nature being what it is it'll be very hard to be 100% objective. Refs can be unduly influenced by large crowds, big playing characters, personal dislike of certain players and so on. Its human nature. I think Liverpool University made a study of this years ago and came to this conclusion. We need to encourage more to take up refereeing and give those who do more respect but the SFA needs to start the improvement process itself.

That doesn't surprise me Andy. From memory its comprised a former player, a lawyer and another party (I can't recall who), but the impression I have is that the personnel can vary from meeting to meeting. I think also that our club seeks advice from a "refereeing consultant" before submitting an appeal.

No problem Andy. Just contact me and I'll bring them along on Saturday.

Yes but surely you must agree Andy that he has improved beyond all recognition after a short spell in England. He's probably 6 times better than he was when he left us.

Great idea Andy which will benefit the Society. Could I suggest though that there be some collection at the home games against Ross County and Hearts. Many fans, like myself, aren't able to go near Fir Park except on matchdays and by excluding us you'd be missing out on some contributions. For my part, I won't be at the Hearts game but will be there on Saturday. If someone can meet me either before or after the game I'll hand in a few shirts.

You might be right but how would Thomson know that unless Carson admitted that openly to him? He can't make a decision based on what he thinks a player was thinking. To make the decision he did he must have made several big assumptions 1) Wotherspoon would have won the ball 2) He would have beaten Carson's challenge 3) He would also have beaten Kipre's challenge. 4) Having won the ball and beaten both Kipre and Carson no other Motherwell player ie Heneghan, who was also nearby, would have restricted his opportunity on goal. In short he cannot have been anything like 100% certain that we denied a clear goalscoring opportunity for Wotherspoon. Just noticed too before Carson's poor kick out a St Johnstone player pushes Heneghan, I think, off the park - a soft foul yes but one nonetheless. From other posters, I believe we have appealed this red card but can't find any sources.

Hopefully, Tanner and Frear are deemed fit, and possibly Newell too. Campbell to be a straight replacement for McHugh. Optimistic too that Dunne and Carson will make it but who knows. If not, you'd imagine Plummer and Griffiths will come in.

Normally agree with you O'Neil but not here. In many of the examples the keeper saved an attempt on goal and in the vast majority of cases the attacking player either hit the ball goalwards or was in control of the ball. Wotherspoon neither hit the ball goalwards nor was in control of it. Our appeal, if we make one, may be rejected for a variety of reasons, but I think its strong enough to submit one.

Wotherspoon is also outside of the penalty box and not directly in front of goals. He's also running a slight angle away from the goals. In short he'd have to win the ball, control it, and beat 2 men.

That makes sense for both parties. He was clearly struggling with injury and it clears the way for us to bring in another player. I'm sure someone posted this rumour a day or two ago.

A good thought provoking post by Well Up For It. In the great scheme of things a minor issue. If accepted, then a yellow card instead of a red. Player should still not have been sent off.

We're now past the first knock our stages in the League Cup and the first two league games. The transfer window has about another fortnight to run. How are we doing so far? I think its too early to draw definitive conclusions but here's my work in progress report. Goalkeeper: Carson is a definite upgrade on Samson and is more reliable and better in the air. An all action packed keeper but prone top the odd rush of blood to the head. Defence: Has potential but lacks experience and thats catching us out so far. Tait seems to be the weak link now. Not sure where Hammell & McManus go from here. Midfield: Definitely better than last season although we're over reliant on attacking down the wings. On paper midfield looks better equipped to protect the defence but perhaps they're still getting to know one another. Wings are working well. Can't fathom out Rose yet. Until Saturday was fairly anonymous but played well in Perth. if I'm pushed I'd say he's a low profile player who can do a lot on unnoticed but valuable spadework. Attack: my biggest concern. Moult is struggling for fitness and not getting decent service. Bowman and Fisher just aren't cutting the mustard. Both work very hard but are firing blanks. Of the two Fisher has shown slightly more. Bowman to move on? In general I'm not a fan of the 3 at the back or of the single striker formation. Good to see the team is more physical this year and less prone to bullying by the opposition. However we're a bit naive and inexperienced. Where to we go from here? Obviously the team will settle down and gel more given the large number of new players arriving. I'd say we need an experienced defender and a quick striker up front.

Was Griffiths also unsighted?

Sorry for not making myself clear....since the retaken penalty in the Inverness game.

Have we seen any retaken penalties since in the Premiership for encroachment?

Yes. If the linesman made the call the chances are that he saw it from a near 90 degree angle and the ball would have been obscured by Carson's hand. given the very fine margin of error he would have found it difficult to judge just when he touched the ball.

My view entirely. Now take into account we have possibly the best photo available, unlike the match officials who had to make a split second decision. Its not clear if it is 100% outside the box and its not clear if he actually handles at the point the shot was taken - the ball was still moving. Carson seems to be looking directly at the ball and at close range and seems to have timed his save. Do we really think he made a mistake in handling outside of the box? We are quite right to question these decisions as the outcome of next week's game could depend on them. Margins are very fine indeed. Its not simply a case of chewing over old fat.

An aspect of the decision which hasn't been highlighted much Geoff and you're right. It was not a goalscoring opportunity. We had 2 players who could have made a block or tackle and the St Johnstone player did not have clear sight of goal. Irrespective of where the ball was, this argument should be compelling. Thomson not only made errors of sight but also of judgement.

There's a naivety about the team full stop. More excusably in younger players certainly. As was said earlier, St Johnstone, by comparison, are a streetwise team and yes, unpalatable or not, that did involve conning the referee yesterday. In terms of football alone, our younger lads must learn for example Kipre should have launched the ball out of the park before Carson picked the ball up. "Streetwiseness" is also a quality some managers actively seek and encourage in players. Two players who come to mind were Eoin Jess and Scott Booth at Aberdeen. Even as teenagers they knew all the dodges, cons and tricks. Dundee United were also very good at coaching this aspect of the game. With some players, rashness is just part of their make up and thats a fact of life.

Andy Rose for me followed by Ben Heneghan. No other standouts. I thought Richard Tait again tried his best but his defending was very weak throughout.

Good post. having watched all 3 red card incidents I'd say we were really hard done by. For the first I've watched the highlights replay time and again and I'm not 100% clear as it was very very close; a matter of inches in fact. The best I can come up with is that it was on the line. Now that raises two issues. Sieb is correct in that Thomson was some distance away and did not enjoy a good angle. I don't know what the SFA regulations state but if I wasn't 100% sure I would not issue a red card. Surely his decision wasn't based on probability ie I don't know if it was legal or not but probably wasn't; a 51/49 decision? Ropy's earlier comment about corners came into my thinking also. Its common practice at corners for the taker to place the ball on the very edge of the arc and no more. Now thats deemed to be within the arc and therefore legal. For the second I thought it was a fair tackle at the game and I'm still of that view. However I can see why Thomson issued a yellow card. A 60/40 decision in my view. Again Thomson probably wasn't 100% sure. The third red card is laughable. Dunne in my view accidentally clips the Saints player who goes on and then stubs his boot on the grass. As a layman I would not issue a card, red or yellow, unless I was pretty certain that an offence had taken place. Mistaken and unsafe decisions can cost teams games and money; players money; and deny spectators a fair contest. Just me maybe, but if I'd issued a red card to a team I'd have to be very very certain indeed to issue further red cards for fear of unfairly influencing games. I think we're fully justified in appealing 2 red cards but of course we can't challenge the second, being the culmination of 2 yellow cards.

Well I was at the game and its fair to say its one of the oddest I've witnessed in almost 60 years. I'll not comment on the 3 red cards as I haven't seen them in detail. I thought mistakes were made in the team selection. We lacked pace and movement up front and perhaps, and I say perhaps, MacLean could have given us that. Predictably left wing was a problem for us. We started off well and controlled the game and swung over cross after cross into Saints' box with little effect. Plenty of possession and graft but no cutting edge. After perhaps 20 minutes of pressure we failed to register one effort on goal. Saints broke away and predictably scored 2 goals with 2 attacks. the first one relying on spades of good luck. Bowman and Fisher worked damned hard but did nothing admittedly, with poor service. Poor defending did cost us and thats what Saints are good at - making few mistakes and scoring when the chance presents itself. Over the piece we didn't play badly but lacked experience and streetwiseness. Up front is where our problems lie. Neither Fisher nor Bowman look like doing the business at this level. Hard work in life by itself counts for nothing. As we lost men Saints began to dominate the game as you'd expect. They've now picked up 6 points by beating 2 teams in close fought games as they do. I can't go on without referring to the referee. Red cards apart he had a poor and inconsistent game. He missed 2 blatant hand balls, at close range and a cast iron penalty in my book when Paton, I think, grabbed Moult by the throat at a corner. However you dress it up Paton did not do that by accident. I'd also like him to explain to me why he checked our players 6 times for stealing yards at throw ins and did not pull up Saints once, not once, for similar indiscretions. Failing to give the advantage when Moult was fouled was not something you expect from an experienced referee. As far as Robbo is concerned he must address 2 weaknesses: occasional errors at the back and lack of bite/punch up front. The latter is now becoming a worry. Overall though I'm not overly concerned. We've had 2 tough closely fought league games and sustained two losses with little or no luck. Normally after a defeat I'm hard on the team, but not today. I was one who applauded them off the field for fighting well even when down to 8 men and not giving up. A number of players, including Louis Moult, appreciated that and came over to acknowledge the applause. One final thought is it normal practice for the 3 match officials to leave the pitch before most of the players? I always thought the ref was last to leave.

Mark Reynolds in our classic at Aberdeen? Deliberate handball on the goal line, the ref played on rightly, goal scored but no red card? I'd like to see his explanation about that.

Yes, I think MacLean is due a chance. Injuries permitting you'd think that Cadden, Bigimania, McHugh and Rose are certain starters in midfield. Glad to see that Frear's injury is nowhere as bad as first feared (torn hamstring/serious groin strain).