Refereeing Inconsistencies

[Stuwell2]

Spiderpig totally agree with you on this but unfortunately there’s little chance of that happening. 

[Kmcalpin]

There's no doubt that in recent months, refereeing/VAR performances have deteriorated from an already low base. We seem to be on the receiving end of continual poor potentially game changing decisions or 50/50s going against us week in week out just now.  Yesterday was just another example. The old adage that things even themselves out over a season will certainly not apply this time round. I have no problem with VAR, although it could be improved. What I do have a problem with is how its being used to rereferee games.

I often thought that fans complaining about referees were simply being biased and paranoid (I include myself in this). However, Graeme McGarry recently penned an article in the Herald questioning whether we're being refereed differently since the Callum Slattery iincident. A sound article which I believe has basis in fact.  Despite our style of play, we seem to be awarded far fewer fouls than the opposition. Maybe thats why we go down so often? A physically robust Hearts side were penalised a mere 7 times yesterday. Now as I wasn't at the game, it may well be that Hearts were extremely sporting in their treatment of us. But it seems like a trend. 

Its certainly affecting our results and brasses me off no end but we shouldn't let it get to us Starsail and San. 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/26008883.motherwell-refereed-differently-slattery-row/

[joewarkfanclub]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

There's no doubt that in recent months, refereeing/VAR performances have deteriorated from an already low base. We seem to be on the receiving end of continual poor potentially game changing decisions or 50/50s going against us week in week out just now.  Yesterday was just another example. The old adage that things even themselves out over a season will certainly not apply this time round. I have no problem with VAR, although it could be improved. What I do have a problem with is how its being used to rereferee games.

I often thought that fans complaining about referees were simply being biased and paranoid (I include myself in this). However, Graeme McGarry recently penned an article in the Herald questioning whether we're being refereed differently since the Callum Slattery iincident. A sound article which I believe has basis in fact.  Despite our style of play, we seem to be awarded far fewer fouls than the opposition. Maybe thats why we go down so often? A physically robust Hearts side were penalised a mere 7 times yesterday. Now as I wasn't at the game, it may well be that Hearts were extremely sporting in their treatment of us. But it seems like a trend. 

Its certainly affecting our results and brasses me off no end but we shouldn't let it get to us Starsail and San. 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/26008883.motherwell-refereed-differently-slattery-row/

Hearts were indeed "robust" yesterday, as you would expect them to be when they are chasing down a title. I have no issue with that if both teams are refereed to the same standard.

But, not for the first time, yesterday we were not. We are not as "robust" a team as Hearts, but time and again we were blown up for soft fouls that Hearts appeared to be getting away with more often than not.

I dont want to see our players going down easily, but it just felt that it got to the point yesterday where the players were getting frustrated by the referee's performance that they were left with no choice. Said was probably the worst offender, but there was one challenge where he got sandwiched by 2 Hearts players and the foul was given against him.

It was getting to the ridiculous stage.

Edit: PS for a team who enjoys as much possession of the ball as we do, you would expect the number of fouls on our players to be higher and with the number of touches we get in the opposition box, that would mean penalties.

[Orinoco]

You would have thought with modern technolegy and vast coverage of matches our officials would be better.  Dont they study? Collum was a clueless clown on the field and has shown he is equally incompetent off it.

VAR has increased costs and turned matches into all the officials. Who wants to pay ever increasing ticket prices for that?

 

 

[wellfan]

The majority of this cohort of officials have been fast tracked due to the increased demand brought about by the introduction of VAR and, as a result, are overpromoted. Many of them also come across as arrogant twats, with their body language and the way they speak to players often being appalling. A good referee earns the respect of players through performance and communication, not by imposing themselves on the game or the players.

Contrast our officials with full time professional referees in England, or in comparable sports such as rugby, and the difference is staggering.

We should not have to accept this any longer, but it will likely take clubs collectively challenging the SFA to force any real change. That seems unlikely though, as the wagons will circle and the same group of underperforming, useless clowns will remain protected, with any serious pushback risking disruption to the league.

If FIFA are effectively blacklisting SFA officials, what are member clubs and fans supposed to do if the SFA will not do what is needed itself?

[GrahamH]

4 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Hearts were indeed "robust" yesterday, as you would expect them to be when they are chasing down a title. I have no issue with that if both teams are refereed to the same standard.

But, not for the first time, yesterday we were not. We are not as "robust" a team as Hearts, but time and again we were blown up for soft fouls that Hearts appeared to be getting away with more often than not.

I dont want to see our players going down easily, but it just felt that it got to the point yesterday where the players were getting frustrated by the referee's performance that they were left with no choice. Said was probably the worst offender, but there was one challenge where he got sandwiched by 2 Hearts players and the foul was given against him.

It was getting to the ridiculous stage.

Edit: PS for a team who enjoys as much possession of the ball as we do, you would expect the number of fouls on our players to be higher and with the number of touches we get in the opposition box, that would mean penalties.

Said was being penalised almost every time he made a tackle. The one he was booked for was a joke as well. Devlin literally fell onto the ball with minimal or no contact. When the same thing happened to Fadinger the free kick went to Hearts. You just need to watch the Falkirk game today to see how dodgy/controversial decisions change games.

[Scarecrow]

I've got to admit, that I am slowly falling into the ' can't be arsed anymore' category. Which, in itself is bewildering to me, as Ive been going for well over fifty years now and this season has been one of the best from a pure footballing perspective. Over the years, we got some absolutely stinking decisions against us and probably quite a few in our favour, which don't get memorised so much. However, the introduction of VAR, should have been a force for good, but has now became the antithesis of what it was supposed to be. Games are now being refereed from a secret broom cupboard somewhere, because the on field officials either cannot, or will not, make an decision or, in the few occasions that they actually call it, as they see it, have the balls to stick with a decision, when they are called the monitor to have another look. Modern day players add to this by going down at every opportunity, both sides were guilty of this yesterday and it seems to happen everywhere, every week. However, having a game re-refereed, five weeks after the event was a tipping point for me, we've all had our say, on what did/didn't happen that night. But I've always been in the 'when the full time whistle blows, then the game is over' camp when it comes to on field activities. Over officialdom is killing our game at an ever rapid pace and the people at the top need to get the message, but that message has to come from the fans and by that I mean every club, that is forced to use VAR on a weekly basis. Unfortunately, what should be an exciting post split period looks like a bit of a slog for me personally, however I very much doubt, I am the only one.

[weeyin]

6 hours ago, wellfan said:

The majority of this cohort of officials have been fast tracked due to the increased demand brought about by the introduction of VAR and, as a result, are overpromoted.

I don't think there's that many additonal officials needed for VAR. I think the biggest problem is the lack of people who want to be refs means there is a small pool. 

What we are seeing is literally the best we have available. 

 

[wellfan]

47 minutes ago, weeyin said:

I don't think there's that many additonal officials needed for VAR. I think the biggest problem is the lack of people who want to be refs means there is a small pool. 

What we are seeing is literally the best we have available. 

Another way to look at it is we’re not just dealing with a small pool, we’re stuck with exactly the type of personalities that are drawn to refereeing. Average Joes in the real world with small man syndrome who suddenly get to throw their weight around with impunity on the pitch.

[dennyc]

Won't matter what size of pool we have if they don't know the Laws of the game and are not held accountable when that ignorance shows like it did Saturday. Will anybody challenge Collum to explain why 3 of his team, 5 if you include the Asst Refs, either didn't know the Law or decided to ignore it? Not a chance.

[wellfan]

22 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Won't matter what size of pool we have if they don't know the Laws of the game and are not held accountable when that ignorance shows like it did Saturday. Will anybody challenge Collum to explain why 3 of his team, 5 if you include the Asst Refs, either didn't know the Law or decided to ignore it? Not a chance.

He will be challenged. But, as I said elsewhere on the forum, he’ll contort to justify the decision. 

[Stuwell2]

I keep saying this but foreign referees for VAR and an ex player to give context is what’s needed. 
 

Also if - as McGarry indicates in his article - Motherwell are being refereed to a different standard than other teams then the person to blame for that is Slattery.
I’m not saying that the referees are right but if the article is correct then no cheating, no different standard.
Personally I’m not sure it’s all down to the Slattery incident and more down to incompetence. 

[Spiderpig]

7 hours ago, Stuwell2 said:

I keep saying this but foreign referees for VAR and an ex player to give context is what’s needed. 
 

Also if - as McGarry indicates in his article - Motherwell are being refereed to a different standard than other teams then the person to blame for that is Slattery.
I’m not saying that the referees are right but if the article is correct then no cheating, no different standard.
Personally I’m not sure it’s all down to the Slattery incident and more down to incompetence. 

Its more than incompetence now, thats two games in a row, we have had ridiculous decisions go against us, potentially costing us 6 points and if you add in the pittodrie shit show, a cup semi final place and losing an important player for two games with the Slattery debacle.

The club needs to be stronger and start calling out this nonsense with the SFA, as do all the clubs, the whole set up is a incompetent shambles not fit for purpose intent on pandering to two clubs at the expense of the other 40.

[wellfan]

7 hours ago, Stuwell2 said:

Also if - as McGarry indicates in his article - Motherwell are being refereed to a different standard than other teams then the person to blame for that is Slattery.

I disagree. Blaming Slattery here gives the officials a pass. He’s already been punished, so anything that happens to him or his teammates following this should be judged on its own merits, not dragged in from previous incidents. We’ve already seen that different standard applied against Falkirk and Hearts.

If officials can’t apply the laws fairly and impartially regardless of history, they shouldn’t be in the job. Suggesting a player or team can be refereed to a different standard because of the past just excuses poor officiating, normalises inconsistency and, at worst, bias. That’s on the referees, not the player.

[Kmcalpin]

7 hours ago, Stuwell2 said:

Also if - as McGarry indicates in his article - Motherwell are being refereed to a different standard than other teams then the person to blame for that is Slattery.

Sorry, I couldn't disagree more. I don't, in any way way condone what Slattery seemed to do (it wasn't proved beyond reasonable doubt), and he has been punished by the SFA.  In short he was singled out for special treatment. We've seen several other breaches of Rule 77 since with no action being taken. 

As the governing body, the SFA and its employees must not get involved in petty vendettas against clubs. It and they should act with the utmost decorum and fairness. If it cannot do this then it will lose the respect of clubs, players and last but by no means least, the paying public and rightly so.  At that point, the games a bogey.

As Spiderpig says, the club and in my view the Society should call out the level of refereeing and VAR incompetence publicly. 

[bobbybingo]

The attitude towards Motherwell on social media has definitely swung recently. No doubt the inevitable 'too big for their boots' backlash accounts for some of that, but since Slattery's ban, 'diving cheats' is thrown out every time one of our guys goes down.

Luckily, we have fair minded, competent referees who are immune to that stuff.

 

[pretzel]

It’s the inconsistency in decisions that’s actually doing my tits in. You can say what you want about Slattery, but the St Mirren player turned and actually swung at him. We were all debating afterwards if he’d caught him, it’s a red all day no question, but I always thought the intent was enough. Same as when a player flies in two-footed (like Lee Lucas did) but still misses, players know VAR is watching now so its a waste of time feigning things.

Slattery still got utterly vilified, yet Cantwell was pretending he’d been elbowed in the face a few seasons ago at Fir Park, ironically against Slattery, and that just gets brushed off as per, no meltdown.

Then you’ve got that 7-minute spell against Falkirk last week. The ref was atrocious - gave them a free kick when McGinn was fouled first, let a blatant foul on Just go without even a word, and then the coup de grâce: the missed penalty and the sending off. I say 7 minutes, but the whole game followed the same pattern.

Even in one of Willie Collum’s reviews, he talks about a similar incident where no penalty was given when a player’s head was clipped at knee height, and the reasoning aligns with putting himself in danger. You just know he’ll be inconsistent again the next time he’s on. After all, he was greeting about the Balmer decision last season against Killie where the player was entitled to challenge for the ball, but Kofi wasn't. It still boggles my mind that we had 100 world class appilcants and he's the one for the role. Back in the day, when wrongful red cards were quickly appealed I think 8 or so from Collum was successfully appealed over the piece, whereas others were 1.

Honestly, what is the game coming to when players are getting sent off for DOGSO on the halfway line? Or even reading Kevin Clancy's description of the Celtic incident. 

I would love to be optimistic and say it's going to get worse before it gets better, but I'll just stick to it's going to get worse. More changes around the World Cup will happen as per, then you have Arsene Wenger's offside rule currently getting tested, then that will be implemented no doubt, but it will still contain the same old annoyances.

Apologies for the moan but I can seldom muster up the strength to post on here nowadays, so thankful that we have been playing the way we have been.

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

As Spiderpig says, the club and in my view the Society should call out the level of refereeing and VAR incompetence publicly. 

It would be nice to see more emphasis put on it; they did a questionnaire in the summer and released the results, and most people who voted wanted it rid of. I think they even started a petition or something on change.org, I'm positive I remember that being at 1.5k signatories. 

[wellfan]

The problem isn’t VAR itself; it’s the clowns running it.

[star sail]

2 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

 

The club needs to be stronger and start calling out this nonsense with the SFA, as do all the clubs, the whole set up is a incompetent shambles not fit for purpose intent on pandering to two clubs at the expense of the other 40.

I think it is beyond the influence of one club (out with the OF) to have any influence. The clubs need to join together to call out specific instances and make it clear collectively that they don't accept the current standards.

Rangers and Celtic have the power to look after themselves. To my mind Rangers have been refereed differently this season since they made a song and dance about the Trusty incident in the league cup semi final back in November. It works for them.

Football is so partizan in nature that week by week supporters will shift their opinion based on the hot topic of the week. Look at Falkirk, St Mirren , Hearts fans comments in recent weeks on social media in relation to Motherwell for evidence.

For me the most obvious and blatant miscarriage of justice this season was the Fernandez deliberate handball against Livingston at Ibrox. Clear and deliberate denying a certain goal. It could be argued that that decision alone changed the course of not just that game, but Livingston's season.

The decision to not award a penalty was so clearly indefensible that eventually the reason given was an ' honest mistake ' by the referee and VAR. 

The temptation by supporters of other clubs is to say f**k Livingston, we would rather they suffer than us, but by allowing Livingston to fend for themselves, we are also building the culture where Motherwell and every smaller club has to fend for themselves when it is their turn.

What should happen in instances like that is that the 10 non OF clubs should join together in support of Livingston and collectively say 'we are not accepting this as a standard for the professional game in Scotland '

My opinion of that particular incident was that it was easier for the officials not to give the penalty than to give it because the game was at Ibrox and Rangers were under pressure at that point in the game. I don't think there is any conspiracy about this. It is human nature when under pressure to consciously or subconsciously choose the outcome that causes the least discomfort to ourselves. That is why the 10 Non OF clubs have to make it as uncomfortable as possible for the referees to take the easy way out in 50/50, 60/40 situation.

The reason why that particular incident would have been a very powerful one to get behind was that it was 100% a penalty. No subjectivity, no interpretation of the rules.

Until the smaller clubs coordinate in this way nothing will change. 

[dennyc]

According to the match programme on Saturday the VAR Official was Steven McLean. The same VAR Official from the Aberdeen cup tie. The same referee who put in a shocking performance in the home game v Rangers a week before the cup tie and was loudly booed off at the end. Obviously just a coincidence as I'm sure he holds no grudges.

[Wishielad]

16 hours ago, wellfan said:

Another way to look at it is we’re not just dealing with a small pool, we’re stuck with exactly the type of personalities that are drawn to refereeing. Average Joes in the real world with small man syndrome who suddenly get to throw their weight around with impunity on the pitch.

Too many refs in jobs in which they're never questioned or have to justify their performance - lawyers, accountants, education officers, politicians - so they become uber-petulant when anyone dares to do so. Collum was the prime example of that.

[weeyin]

15 hours ago, dennyc said:

Won't matter what size of pool we have if they don't know the Laws of the game and are not held accountable when that ignorance shows like it did Saturday. Will anybody challenge Collum to explain why 3 of his team, 5 if you include the Asst Refs, either didn't know the Law or decided to ignore it? Not a chance.

It does matter, though, because when the pool is small there is no incentive to improve. 

With a larger pool, there might be some officials who take action to improve so they can replace the clueless refs in the top games.

 

[well_said]

6 hours ago, Spiderpig said:

Its more than incompetence now, thats two games in a row, we have had ridiculous decisions go against us, potentially costing us 6 points and if you add in the pittodrie shit show, a cup semi final place and losing an important player for two games with the Slattery debacle.

The club needs to be stronger and start calling out this nonsense with the SFA, as do all the clubs, the whole set up is a incompetent shambles not fit for purpose intent on pandering to two clubs at the expense of the other 40.

The other 40 have the collective power to enforce changes but somehow they seem reluctant to do so.

[well_said]

4 hours ago, pretzel said:

 

It’s the inconsistency in decisions that’s actually doing my tits in. You can say what you want about Slattery, but the St Mirren player turned and actually swung at him. We were all debating afterwards if he’d caught him, it’s a red all day no question, but I always thought the intent was enough. Same as when a player flies in two-footed (like Lee Lucas did) but still misses, players know VAR is watching now so its a waste of time feigning things.

Slattery still got utterly vilified, yet Cantwell was pretending he’d been elbowed in the face a few seasons ago at Fir Park, ironically against Slattery, and that just gets brushed off as per, no meltdown.

Then you’ve got that 7-minute spell against Falkirk last week. The ref was atrocious - gave them a free kick when McGinn was fouled first, let a blatant foul on Just go without even a word, and then the coup de grâce: the missed penalty and the sending off. I say 7 minutes, but the whole game followed the same pattern.

Even in one of Willie Collum’s reviews, he talks about a similar incident where no penalty was given when a player’s head was clipped at knee height, and the reasoning aligns with putting himself in danger. You just know he’ll be inconsistent again the next time he’s on. After all, he was greeting about the Balmer decision last season against Killie where the player was entitled to challenge for the ball, but Kofi wasn't. It still boggles my mind that we had 100 world class appilcants and he's the one for the role. Back in the day, when wrongful red cards were quickly appealed I think 8 or so from Collum was successfully appealed over the piece, whereas others were 1.

Honestly, what is the game coming to when players are getting sent off for DOGSO on the halfway line? Or even reading Kevin Clancy's description of the Celtic incident. 

I would love to be optimistic and say it's going to get worse before it gets better, but I'll just stick to it's going to get worse. More changes around the World Cup will happen as per, then you have Arsene Wenger's offside rule currently getting tested, then that will be implemented no doubt, but it will still contain the same old annoyances.

Apologies for the moan but I can seldom muster up the strength to post on here nowadays, so thankful that we have been playing the way we have been.

It would be nice to see more emphasis put on it; they did a questionnaire in the summer and released the results, and most people who voted wanted it rid of. I think they even started a petition or something on change.org, I'm positive I remember that being at 1.5k signatories. 

I dont remember seeing that 100 people applied for the job , but my God they must have really bad if that clown got the job.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, weeyin said:

It does matter, though, because when the pool is small there is no incentive to improve. 

With a larger pool, there might be some officials who take action to improve so they can replace the clueless refs in the top games.

 

There is no incentive to improve no matter how many are involved.  Irrespective of how many errors they make or how many times they ignore the Laws, with Collum in charge they are untouchable and decisions justified to the extreme. You just have to watch the farcical monthly review to see the institution in action. Collum has devised his own personal rule book. Quote ' Our stakeholders don't want to see that'. Translation ' We will ignore the Laws (sometimes)'. Possibly one reason why none of his team of experts made the 150 heading to the USA. That speaks volumes. 

Change will only be possible when leadership is honest and prepared to apply standards. How about instead of an ex referee being in charge, they appoint a former non Scottish player who understands the game  and can tell the difference between intent and accidental, the difference between natural and unnatural? Move on from mates covering mates.  

Better still, just scrap VAR. I am now at the stage where hearing the justification for the ever growing number of errors is more frustrating than the errors themselves.