Motherwell v St Mirren 28/09/2024

[steelboy]

55 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

want to say thank you to Dan Casey - if that was a keeper he'd be applauded for that save at close range.

Appreciate him throwing his body on the line and worked out rather nicely 

I think we might be able to appeal the red card as it wasn't that different from the one where the St Johnstone player handballed on the line at close range at Celtic Park last year which wasn't even a pen. I've no problem with a penalty here but I think it's fair to argue that he was trying to block the ball legally as best he could.

[Kmcalpin]

Overall a very satisfying result. Not a classic but then almost no-one predicted it would be. I'd been warned beforehand about just how big and physical and Saints would be but it didn't sink in until just before kick off. Our starting line up surprised me and in terms of the stiker(s) it just didn't work. As Steelboy said elsewhere, lets hope it isn't repeated. Ebeye is a penalty box striker, nothing else. By all means start him if we are expected to be the dominant team in a game, otherwise no.  Robinson and Ebeye were lightweight and totally ineffective against a defence of colossuses.  The ball just wouldn't stick up front.

Thats a game we would have lost season.  Apart from a few stupid mistakes, most notably at the first goal we looked fairly reliable. The Ox refused to be intimidated and had a great game saving a penalty. Our central defence, marshalled well by the impressive Gordon held out well. Wilson performed solidly but suffered from a lack of midfield cover, especially in the second half. 

Of greatest concern to me was our powder puff midfield, Lennon Miller apart. I thought Miller had a great game and took his goals coolly and well. Halliday and the energetic Davor were simply outmuscled and overpowered by much bigger, quicker, and physical opponents. For a large part of their time on the pitch they simply disappeared. Its an area of the team I'd like to see strengthened.

For the time we were numerically disadvantaged at 11 v 10, we struggled but the set up was wrong. Once things were evened out at 10 v 10 we failed to grasp that equality had been restored, remained passive and looked like a team under the cosh. Where was our midfield? I thought our subs were too late in coming on. Would a winger, for example, have stretched St Mirren? For all St Mirren's physical dominance they lacked qualty and creativity and that was their downfall. 

After listening to Sportsound post match, I considered writing to the SPFL to add to their chorus of complaints and moans and request that the result be declared null and void but then I came to my senses. Whatever the result, we won't have made many friends in the media yesterday.

As a final aside, interesting that Robbo took great exception to a punter in the POD Stand giving him some stick. There was also a rumour doing the rounds that KVV came on as a sub yesterday but didn't see him myself.  

[steelboy]

14 hours ago, MFCL84 said:

 

However, I'm not going to get carried away, the general level of team performance was very poor. No team can continue winning games when they give up so much territory, give the opposition so many chances and lose possession so easily. The stats today show that we managed only 37% possession. We must get better at ball retention or there won't be too many games where we get the 3 points.

 

Looking at the stats on WhoScored.com and Halliday completed 12 passes in the game and Robinson only 4. That's horrific considering they both played 70 minutes. Davor completed 20 but only 1 of them went into the final third. 

Games against Hibs are usually a lot more open than against St Johnstone so hopefully we manage to play a bit more football.

[Kmcalpin]

19 minutes ago, steelboy said:

I think we might be able to appeal the red card as it wasn't that different from the one where the St Johnstone player handballed on the line at close range at Celtic Park last year which wasn't even a pen. I've no problem with a penalty here but I think it's fair to argue that he was trying to block the ball legally as best he could.

Pretty much my take on it. When the ball struck him at point blank range he seemed to be crouched down and in that position, its hard to keep your hands rigidly by your side, if you want to retain your balance. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

4 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

Overall a very satisfying result. Not a classic but then almost no-one predicted it would be. I'd been warned beforehand about just how big and physical and Saints would be but it didn't sink in until just before kick off. Our starting line up surprised me and in terms of the stiker(s) it just didn't work. As Steelboy said elsewhere, lets hope it isn't repeated. Ebeye is a penalty box striker, nothing else. By all means start him if we are expected to be the dominant team in a game, otherwise no.  Robinson and Ebeye were lightweight and totally ineffective against a defence of colossuses.  The ball just wouldn't stick up front.

Thats a game we would have vost season.  Apart from a few stupid mistakes, most notably at the first goal we looked fairly reliable. The Ox refused to be intimidated and had a great game saving a penalty. Our central defence, marshalled well by the impressive Gordon held out well. Wilson perfoemed solidly but suffered from a lack of midfield cover, especially in the second half. 

Of greatest concern to me was our powder puff midfield, Lennon Miller apart. I thought Miller had a great game and took his goals colly and well. Halliday and the energetic Davor were simply outmuscled and overpowered by much bigger, quicker, and physical opponents. For a large part of their time on the pitch they simply disappeared. Its an area of the team I'd like to see strengthened.

For the time we were numerically disadvantaged at 11 v 10, we struggled but the set up was wrong. Once things were evened out at 10 v 10 we failed to grasp that equality had been restored, remained passive and looked like a team under the cosh. Where was our midfield? I thought our subs were too late in coming on. Would a winger, for example, have stretched St Mirren? For all St Mirren's physical dominance they lacked qualty and creativity and that was their downfall. 

After listening to Sportsound post match, I considered writing to the SPFL to add to their chorus of complaints moans and request that the result be declared null and void but then I came to my senses. Whatever the result, we won't have made many friends in the media yesterday.

As a final aside, interesting that Robbo took great exception to a punter in the POD Stand giving him some stick. There was also a rumour doing the rounds that KVV came on as a sub yesterday but didn't see him myself.  

Pretty much as I saw it and despite all the Davor hero worshippers I still think he and Halliday dont command the middle of the park as much as I'd like. It was therefore no surprise St Mirren had 63% of the possession. St Mirren can consider themselves hard done by however I'm fed up watching us turn them over in terms of play only to lose so yesterday was our turn.

[wellfan]

Tanser is a prick. He targeted SOD twice yesterday and got his just reward. 

[StAndrew7]

I'm by no means a Davor fanboy; he has his limitations and often dwells on the ball too long and is caught out as a result. He's also not strong enough at times but his energy and willingness to get across the front of the back door does make up for that.

But what I don't understand is the extent of the stick he gets for not playing forward passes. That's not the role he plays and isn't the role he's asked to play in our system, so why criticise him for it? He looks a far better player with Miller alongside him, because he can give him the ball to play it forward.

Halliday, I agree, is a man down. The ball sailed over his head continuously yesterday. He was outstanding versus Hearts and played well against United too, but he does have a tendency to disappear for a run of games which we can't maintain. 

Sparrow looks like he has some energy and dig from the appearnes I've seen and it'd be good to see him starting in there at some point.

When you think that of our remaining injuries, three of them are central midfielders, I think we're coping quite well.

There's improvements to be made in the final third but we've definitely addressed the main deficiencies of last season at the back.

Would it be wrong of me to say I hope Casey doesn't win any appeal so we get a better look at Balmer?

[joewarkfanclub]

Just seen the highlights.

What a save from Ox in the first half.

Even better than the pen save.

We have upgraded big time in the keeper department.

[Happy Dosser]

21 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Tanser is a prick. He targeted SOD twice yesterday and got his just reward. 

Yes, very cynical to go after a guy whose shoulder was probably a bit dodgy anyway.  The sending off itself seemed a bit over the top but didn't Tanser also barge into  The Ox? Maybe the ref just got fed up with him and the second yellow was cumulative.

It was great to beat SM because they have usually outmuscled us in the past and ground out a victory but Robinson just isn't working up front in the present formation since the ball never sticks to him and so he can't link up with anyone. SK needs to solve that problem pronto and this shouldn't be too difficult given that we're top-heavy with strikers, at least on paper.

Watt was eventually brought on to hold on to the ball and win fouls but he doesn't look match fit.

I should be happier today after a win  and with us sitting on ten points but that was a real shitfest,(perhaps inevitable given the nature of the opposition), and our midfield contributed little, Lennon Miller apart. That said, I think we would have lost that game last season. The Ox has made a big difference to our chances of winning tight games, as the last two matches at FP have shown.

Lots for the management to mull over before our visit to the Far East.

 

[steelboy]

45 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Tanser is a prick. He targeted SOD twice yesterday and got his just reward. 

Aye he studded him on the top of the foot which is a textbook yellow card.

As much as our referees can be poor I think the bigger problem is the players and coaches. There are so many stupid fouls in Scotland like the ones Tanser committed that are completely needless then you have a guy like Oluysana who's game plan is to basically run into people and hope he either wins the ball or gets a foul, you see him try to win pens like that every time he plays. In the Celtic game yesterday Trusty smashed his shoulder into Carey's head and Michael Stewart claimed it wasn't even a foul, what chance have the refs got? We aren't innocent either, whatever Tony Watt was doing yesterday throwing himself around the park didn't have much to do with football either.

 

17 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

I'm by no means a Davor fanboy and he has his limitations and often dwells on the ball too long and is caught out as a result. He's also not strong enough at times but his energy and willingness to get across the front of the back door does make up for that.

Would it be wrong of me to say I hope Casey doesn't win his appeal if we do go for it so we get a better look at Balmer?

If he's not passing forward or helping us retain possession or get forward he's basically a man down when we have the ball. The only good thing about him, Halliday and Robinson being so poor is that it should be extremely easy to find upgrades. Paton and Slattery are going to look great by comparison when they come back.

In his last four games Casey has a goal, an assist, has won a penalty, saved a goal yesterday and made a big contribution to the opener in the Quarter final. He's been our biggest threat at set pieces so it would be a big loss.

 

[well_said]

4 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Aye he studded him on the top of the foot which is a textbook yellow card.

As much as our referees can be poor I think the bigger problem is the players and coaches. There are so many stupid fouls in Scotland like the ones Tanser committed that are completely needless then you have a guy like Oluysana who's game plan is to basically run into people and hope he either wins the ball or gets a foul, you see him try to win pens like that every time he plays. In the Celtic game yesterday Trusty smashed his shoulder into Carey's head and Michael Stewart claimed it wasn't even a foul, what chance have the refs got? We aren't innocent either, whatever Tony Watt was doing yesterday throwing himself around the park didn't have much to do with football either.

 

If he's not passing forward or helping us retain possession or get forward he's basically a man down when we have the ball. The only good thing about him, Halliday and Robinson being so poor is that it should be extremely easy to find upgrades. Paton and Slattery are going to look great by comparison when they come back.

In his last four games Casey has a goal, an assist, has won a penalty, saved a goal yesterday and made a big contribution to the opener in the Quarter final. He's been our biggest threat at set pieces so it would be a big loss.

 

No surprise regarding Michael Stewart , like  the vast majority of the Scottish media they are Celtic cheerleaders.

[Kmcalpin]

19 minutes ago, Happy Dosser said:

Robinson just isn't working up front in the present formation since the ball never sticks to him and so he can't link up with anyone. SK needs to solve that problem pronto and this shouldn't be too difficult given that we're top-heavy with strikers, at least on paper.

I'm not so sure.

Yes, we are top heavy with strikers but as a whole their recruitment seems a bit piecemeal and they don't complement each other. Its as though they've been selected randomly.

Ebeye is a penalty box striker only.

Robinson is quick but lightweight and can't hold the ball up.

Stuparevic??

Watt: experienced and will do a job but not an out and out striker.

Ap Stam promising but we haven't yet seen much of him??

We don't have an out and out target man who can compete with gargantuan defenders which was obvious yesterday.

[MFCL84]

34 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

I'm by no means a Davor fanboy; he has his limitations and often dwells on the ball too long and is caught out as a result. He's also not strong enough at times but his energy and willingness to get across the front of the back door does make up for that.

I have to agree with this. Davor is a breaker of play, not a play maker. That said, the way that we currently setup in midfield means that Davor frequently has to become a bit of a play maker. His tendency to turn back means that opportunities to make something happen in the final third are often lost, and we make so few chances from open play. That may be where some of the fan frustraion comes from.

[Kmcalpin]

46 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

I'm by no means a Davor fanboy; he has his limitations and often dwells on the ball too long and is caught out as a result. He's also not strong enough at times but his energy and willingness to get across the front of the back door does make up for that.

But what I don't understand is the extent of the stick he gets for not playing forward passes. That's not the role he plays and isn't the role he's asked to play in our system, so why criticise him for it?

I agree with that. Its not his lack of passing ability that gets me though. For a large part of the second half when we were under the cosh, he simply disappeared and merged with our defence. I was looking for our defensive midfielders to stick their chins out and push out from our penalty box to tackle Saints' attackers head on and close them down. That didn't happen. Instead they sat far too deep and caused problems for our central defenders and especially Ewan Wilson who was frequently faced by 2 attackers.  i get though that this may have been down to managerial instructions to sit deep and concede territory. 

[StAndrew7]

23 minutes ago, steelboy said:

If he's not passing forward or helping us retain possession or get forward he's basically a man down when we have the ball. The only good thing about him, Halliday and Robinson being so poor is that it should be extremely easy to find upgrades. Paton and Slattery are going to look great by comparison when they come back.

We've gone back and forth on Davor a fair bit the last wee while. I get that you don't rate him but I think you're being quite harsh.

I think he does retain possession and then gives it to wider players (which seems to be Kettlewell's preference for moving the ball/patterns of play).

Davor gets caught out because he has a lack of support and it normally leads to an opposition attack when he does; so it's more noticeable than Miller or someone else losing it further up the pitch.

@MFCL84 makes a valid point and he does appear to be isolated in the pivot/anchor role. That, for me, is on Halliday who always seems to disappear up towards the final third when we're looking to build an attack, or hides behind one of the opposition.

[StAndrew7]

14 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

I get though that this may have been down to managerial instructions to sit deep and concede territory. 

Yeah, we had the same frustration yesterday too. Especially when it went to 10 v 10; as much as it annoyed me, it did end up working. They created very little once we set up like that. I think it must have been instructions from SK.

Sparrow coming on to replace him was clearly given instructions to get in their face more and we did look better as a result, I agree.

[steelboy]

2 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

 

I think he does retain possession and then gives it to wider players (which seems to be Kettlewell's preference for moving the ball/patterns of play).

 

None of our midfielders or forwards are good at retaining possession. Our average pass streak (how many passes we play before losing possession) is three. St Johnstone, Hearts, Aberdeen and St Mirren all averaged five against us. 

Over the 6 league games we have averaged 38% possession which is the worst in the league. We are performing well in both boxes but it's obvious we need to improve our play in the middle of the park.

[joewarkfanclub]

12 minutes ago, steelboy said:

None of our midfielders or forwards are good at retaining possession. Our average pass streak (how many passes we play before losing possession) is three. St Johnstone, Hearts, Aberdeen and St Mirren all averaged five against us. 

Over the 6 league games we have averaged 38% possession which is the worst in the league. We are performing well in both boxes but it's obvious we need to improve our play in the middle of the park.

Im hoping that part improves when the likes of Paton, Slattery and Nicholson all return.

Of course there is more we could be doing now.

I really like what Ive seen of Sparrow. He has a drive and an energy going forward that none of our other midfielders have.

My preference would be to play Miller in the deeper role and have Sparrow supporting the front players.

But that means SK dropping either Halliday or Davor, and I dont see him doing either.

[SteelmaninOZ]

Mr. Cool 

 

[Spiderpig]

3 hours ago, steelboy said:

I think we might be able to appeal the red card as it wasn't that different from the one where the St Johnstone player handballed on the line at close range at Celtic Park last year which wasn't even a pen. I've no problem with a penalty here but I think it's fair to argue that he was trying to block the ball legally as best he could.

Why waste time appealing, watch the sportscene coverage he just about caught the ball that was heading into the net, so a penalty and a red card for preventing a certain goal was the only option.

[StAndrew7]

14 minutes ago, steelboy said:

None of our midfielders or forwards are good at retaining possession. Our average pass streak (how many passes we play before losing possession) is three. St Johnstone, Hearts, Aberdeen and St Mirren all averaged five against us. 

Over the 6 league games we have averaged 38% possession which is the worst in the league. We are performing well in both boxes but it's obvious we need to improve our play in the middle of the park.

We set up to play a pretty direct counter attacking style no matter the opposition; I'd not really expect us to be retaining that much of the ball.

Aberdeen and Hearts you'd expect that, despite how badly the latter are playing. St Mirren play a different style to us with wingers and it's no surprise they'd have more of the ball than we do.

I agree it's a poor show against St Johnstone.

On your other point, one of your main criticisms that seems to persist is Davor not playing forward passes, but you openly admit our forwards and his fellow midfielders can't retain possession.

Which do you want?

If he gives it to Robinson who then loses it immediately we're instantly back defending; if he recycles it backwards or out wide, he's at least removing pressure, even for a brief period of time.

The system is on the manager and the job he's asking the players to execute. It's currently working relatively well; I accept improvements can be made on an individual level but they always can, no matter how well we're playing.

 

[SteelmaninOZ]

And again 

 

[steelboy]

13 minutes ago, StAndrew7 said:

 

On your other point, one of your main criticisms that seems to persist is Davor not playing forward passes, but you openly admit our forwards and his fellow midfielders can't retain possession.

 

 

Part of the reason why we can't retain possession is because he's barely involved in the final third which isn't good enough when we are playing with a back 5 and neither of the wingbacks are particularly attacking. It's like playing with 10 men which puts more pressure on everyone else.

The best example of this was Livi away last season when we were pathetic first half then as soon as he went off we ran over the top of them.

 

 

[StAndrew7]

12 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Part of the reason why we can't retain possession is because he's barely involved in the final third which isn't good enough when we are playing with a back 5 and neither of the wingbacks are particularly attacking. It's like playing with 10 men which puts more pressure on everyone else.

The best example of this was Livi away last season when we were pathetic first half then as soon as he went off we ran over the top of them.

That's isn't the role he plays though and never has been.

You can hammer him as much as you want for not being an effective contributor in the final third but if he's asked to be the holding/sitting midfielder and not be an attacking threat that's not on him.

Miller and Halliday there to perform that role so he doesn't have to. If Halliday is shite at it that's not Davor's fault and leaves him even more exposed to criticism and being caught out.

He came off against Livi and from what I recall (although I wasn't there, so correct me if I'm wrong) we played a slightly different system when he did; Miller went deeper, I think?

[StAndrew7]

56 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Im hoping that part improves when the likes of Paton, Slattery and Nicholson all return.

Of course there is more we could be doing now.

I really like what Ive seen of Sparrow. He has a drive and an energy going forward that none of our other midfielders have.

My preference would be to play Miller in the deeper role and have Sparrow supporting the front players.

But that means SK dropping either Halliday or Davor, and I dont see him doing either.

This is another issue. Kettlewell doesn't really drop players unless he absolutely has to.