International Players Thread

[Ya Bezzer!]

19 hours ago, bobbybingo said:

I would've thought he was better than that. If the entire Scotland squad aren't good international players, god knows where Motherwell players would measure up at club level.

Talking generally rather than about individuals but we've seen over and over again, both Scotland at international level and Motherwell at European level were we are on the football ladder.

We are miles behind the leading nations at international level, on par with minnows at club level and it's all going to get worse since we've literally given up on producing youth players in Scotland.

I mean there are literally about 4 young Scots getting game time in the Premiership this season (Lennon Miller, Kilmarnock's David Watson and...at a push....Josh Reid at Ross County and Ryan Duncan at Aberdeen).  That's it.

And if anyone says "Oh, all the good Scottish youths go down to England now" well I make it three Scottish youth players that have gone down south and made it through to club and international level (Gilmour, Hanley, Hyam). 

Everyone else is non Scots qualifying through a parent. 

So until I see more evidence I don't have much hope in the English system producing Scottish talent outside the 'yir granny wis fae Castlemilk' route.

We've qualified for the Euros and that's great and all but domestically and internationally we are heading straight off a very tall cliff.

 

[dennyc]

3 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Talking generally rather than about individuals but we've seen over and over again, both Scotland at international level and Motherwell at European level were we are on the football ladder.

We are miles behind the leading nations at international level, on par with minnows at club level and it's all going to get worse since we've literally given up on producing youth players in Scotland.

I mean there are literally about 4 young Scots getting game time in the Premiership this season (Lennon Miller, Kilmarnock's David Watson and...at a push....Josh Reid at Ross County and Ryan Duncan at Aberdeen).  That's it.

And if anyone says "Oh, all the good Scottish youths go down to England now" well I make it three Scottish youth players that have gone down south and made it through to club and international level (Gilmour, Hanley, Hyam). 

Everyone else is non Scots qualifying through a parent. 

So until I see more evidence I don't have much hope in the English system producing Scottish talent outside the 'yir granny wis fae Castlemilk' route.

We've qualified for the Euros and that's great and all but domestically and internationally we are heading straight off a very tall cliff.

 

Some truth in that and I share your concern regarding the apparent low numbers of emerging Scottish youth in Scotland/England's top Leagues.

But your picture dismisses those youngsters that were born outside of Scotland but qualified for Scotland through having at least one Scottish parent. So the "grannie" comment is a bit misleading. If you look to those who qualify via parents,  then Tierney, McTominay, Gunn,  Brown, Dykes and, closer to home, Max Johnston should be regarded as having successfully come through youth systems. Both here and elsewhere. Or do you think having Scottish parents is not enough to be regarded as "Scottish" youth?

Hickey, Hendry, Patterson, Gilmour and Ferguson are products of the Scottish youth system and comparatively recent additions to the squad.. You can add McGregor, Robertson, Armstrong, Christie, McLean,  Souttar, Kelly and Clark if you care to go back further. All in the current squad. And the McCrorie brothers who may yet break through to the Senior Scottish side. Might not be France or England quality but more than good enough for a place in our squad in their prime.

And looking at the U21s, the two players who posters on here thought excelled in the last few days were Ben Doak and Kieran Bowie. Both born in Scotland and progressing well through English youth set ups. So, again, the Grannie reference does not apply. There are likely more from that U21 team but I cannot be bothered checking.

We can always do with more talent coming through, preferably Scottish born and bred, but there has been a good few in recent years and I don't believe the situation is anywhere near as dire as you suggest. And if Clarke delves deeper to find those who qualify via grandparents, then good luck to him. He would be negligent to ignore any legitimate source open to him. Off the top of my head, only Cooper and Adams are grand parent additions currently. Hardly the majority.  The problem might be getting the Manager to ease out senior players to allow scope for youngsters to be introduced.

[grizzlyg]

2 hours ago, dennyc said:

Some truth in that and I share your concern regarding the apparent low numbers of emerging Scottish youth in Scotland/England's top Leagues.

But your picture dismisses those youngsters that were born outside of Scotland but qualified for Scotland through having at least one Scottish parent. So the "grannie" comment is a bit misleading. If you look to those who qualify via parents,  then Tierney, McTominay, Gunn,  Brown, Dykes and, closer to home, Max Johnston should be regarded as having successfully come through youth systems. Both here and elsewhere. Or do you think having Scottish parents is not enough to be regarded as "Scottish" youth?

Hickey, Hendry, Patterson, Gilmour and Ferguson are products of the Scottish youth system and comparatively recent additions to the squad.. You can add McGregor, Robertson, Armstrong, Christie, McLean,  Souttar, Kelly and Clark if you care to go back further. All in the current squad. And the McCrorie brothers who may yet break through to the Senior Scottish side. Might not be France or England quality but more than good enough for a place in our squad in their prime.

And looking at the U21s, the two players who posters on here thought excelled in the last few days were Ben Doak and Kieran Bowie. Both born in Scotland and progressing well through English youth set ups. So, again, the Grannie reference does not apply. There are likely more from that U21 team but I cannot be bothered checking.

We can always do with more talent coming through, preferably Scottish born and bred, but there has been a good few in recent years and I don't believe the situation is anywhere near as dire as you suggest. And if Clarke delves deeper to find those who qualify via grandparents, then good luck to him. He would be negligent to ignore any legitimate source open to him. Off the top of my head, only Cooper and Adams are grand parent additions currently. Hardly the majority.  The problem might be getting the Manager to ease out senior players to allow scope for youngsters to be introduced.

I have always said that grandparent rule should be scrapped . Either country born in or at least one parent born in Scotland.   For all players that have played for us due to grandparent rule then James Morrison is only one I can think of that was decent. I ain't an Adams fan at all.   As for Elliot Anderson if he suddenly becomes interested again then tell to do one.   Also I don't think we need to start checking eligibility as we are producing enough youngsters of our own.  Just check current youngsters.....hickey... Patterson....porteous.... Gilmour......and you have Doak...Bowie ..max who are progressing well

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

I have always said that grandparent rule should be scrapped . Either country born in or at least one parent born in Scotland.   For all players that have played for us due to grandparent rule then James Morrison is only one I can think of that was decent. I ain't an Adams fan at all.   As for Elliot Anderson if he suddenly becomes interested again then tell to do one.   Also I don't think we need to start checking eligibility as we are producing enough youngsters of our own.  Just check current youngsters.....hickey... Patterson....porteous.... Gilmour......and you have Doak...Bowie ..max who are progressing well

So quite a few more than some would have us believe. I actually agree with you re Grandparents. But until the qualification rules are altered, then Clarke is within his rights to explore that route. I forgot about Porteous.

Other FIFA/UEFA agreed ways to qualify which many folk will find hard to accept is through a minimum residency period and/or spending a required number of years in our School system. I believe Islam Feruz (Celtic/Chelsea), a Somalian refugee featured at several age group levels, and, but for a home nations agreement, Tavernier of Rangers also qualifies. Not saying I agree with either, but in years to come I think there will be players coming through those routes.

Just to clarify...Kieran Tierney was born in the Isle of Man and Max Johnson was born in Middlesbrough. To Scottish parents. So Scottish in my eyes, but not everybody sees it that way it seems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[steelboy]

4 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

 

We've qualified for the Euros and that's great and all but domestically and internationally we are heading straight off a very tall cliff.

 

I don't think that's the case at all. If you look at the full squad and the u21s they are both stronger than they have been have been for a while. We are struggling for a striker but apart from that most positions look strong enough for the medium term to compete to qualify for both tournaments.

Granny players are always going to be part of the set up and just reflect that compared to other nations Scots move around a lot more. The Scottish Government says it's around 1m people born here who live outside Scotland so that's roughly 20% which is double the figure for England.

[dennyc]

9 minutes ago, steelboy said:

I don't think that's the case at all. If you look at the full squad and the u21s they are both stronger than they have been have been for a while. We are struggling for a striker but apart from that most positions look strong enough for the medium term to compete to qualify for both tournaments.

Granny players are always going to be part of the set up and just reflect that compared to other nations Scots move around a lot more. The Scottish Government says it's around 1m people born here who live outside Scotland so that's roughly 20% which is double the figure for England.

Agree totally.

Bowie at U21 Level looking like the real deal so maybe some striker hope for the future there. But he likely needs a bit more time to develop and learn his trade, although he seems to be a quick learner. His winner v Malta was a smart finish.  Came through the SFA programme in Fife, then Raith Rovers before heading South. Maybe the system does work from time to time. 

Don't know if it ever happens, but I wonder if any of the outstanding prospects at U21 level get to train with the full squad if there is no game at their own level. Bowie, Doak and Johnson spring to mind. Might help with their eventual transition to the main squad.

But, yes. There certainly are positives looking forward.

[steelboy]

Watching Chelsea Vs Arsenal and Liam Kelly might not be an international quality goalie but he wouldn't look out of place here. 

[Toxteth O'Grady]

I noticed that Angus Gunn went off injured in Norwich's match this afternoon. No info yet on how long he will be out for. 

[GazzyB]

Also saw an article about Gordon racing to be fit for the Euros.

 

If he makes it it'll be very interesting to see who gets that 3rd spot. 

[MJC]

This place will be some laugh if a 41 year old Craig Gordon gets the nod for Scotland before Liam Kelly.

Never mind the fact that he’s won over 70 caps for Scotland, won numerous trophies for Celtic, a Scottish Cup for Hearts, played in the English Premier League and is still clearly a top class goalkeeper. Nah get oor Liam in there.

I like Kelly, I think he’s a very good goalkeeper for us but he’s nowhere near Craig Gordon’s level.

[Kmcalpin]

11 minutes ago, MJC said:

This place will be some laugh if a 41 year old Craig Gordon gets the nod for Scotland before Liam Kelly.

That tells you a lot about about the state of Scottish golakeeping.

That aside, I've no time whatsoever for Craig Gordon after his antics at Fir Park last season.

[grizzlyg]

39 minutes ago, MJC said:

This place will be some laugh if a 41 year old Craig Gordon gets the nod for Scotland before Liam Kelly.

Never mind the fact that he’s won over 70 caps for Scotland, won numerous trophies for Celtic, a Scottish Cup for Hearts, played in the English Premier League and is still clearly a top class goalkeeper. Nah get oor Liam in there.

I like Kelly, I think he’s a very good goalkeeper for us but he’s nowhere near Craig Gordon’s level.

If Gordon has to have any chance of being in squad he needs to be playing regularly. If that happens then it means Clark will be on the bench. I reckon Liam would then be no.3 keeper

[Mad Dog]

10 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

If Gordon has to have any chance of being in squad he needs to be playing regularly. If that happens then it means Clark will be on the bench. I reckon Liam would then be no.3 keeper

Yeah I found Naismith's comments rather odd considering the implications of Gordon getting back in the squad. I'd be rather annoyed if I was Clark.

[grizzlyg]

Young Brodie Spencer on as a sub for Northern Ireland and.......what ...... surely not.......really..........playing in his natural position at right back,??

SK take note

[GazzyB]

On 10/22/2023 at 3:26 AM, MJC said:

This place will be some laugh if a 41 year old Craig Gordon gets the nod for Scotland before Liam Kelly.

Never mind the fact that he’s won over 70 caps for Scotland, won numerous trophies for Celtic, a Scottish Cup for Hearts, played in the English Premier League and is still clearly a top class goalkeeper. Nah get oor Liam in there.

I like Kelly, I think he’s a very good goalkeeper for us but he’s nowhere near Craig Gordon’s level.

I don’t think anyone on this website would argue one bit if Gordon got the nod. On the contrary I think a lot of our support recognise Kelly is badly out of form right now.

 

Not one post here criticising Clark (rightly) getting the nod over Kelly against Georgia.

 

Motherwell come first for me but I still want my country to do well, a return to fitness Craig Gordon is a much better option than Kelly.

[grizzlyg]

1 hour ago, GazzyB said:

I don’t think anyone on this website would argue one bit if Gordon got the nod. On the contrary I think a lot of our support recognise Kelly is badly out of form right now.

 

Not one post here criticising Clark (rightly) getting the nod over Kelly against Georgia.

 

Motherwell come first for me but I still want my country to do well, a return to fitness Craig Gordon is a much better option than Kelly.

It's a tricky one.  I love seeing Well players getting recognition but I am also a big Scotland fan.  I just don't rate Liam at international level but I wouldn't say Clark is any better.    Gunn is better than both but it really grinds me the fact he wasnt least bit interested in playing for Scotland but hey Gordon out for 9 months and suddenly his mind changed 

[Ya Bezzer!]

Gordon hasn't been any good for ages.

He was shite at Celtic.

Roby McCrorie should get himself first team football somewhere and he'll be right in there.

[David]

14 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

Gunn is better than both but it really grinds me the fact he wasnt least bit interested in playing for Scotland but hey Gordon out for 9 months and suddenly his mind changed 

Being an international player who could potentially appear at a Euros or World Cup will do him no harm when it comes time to negotiate his next contract or secure his next move. That's the only reason he changed his mind.

[grizzlyg]

15 minutes ago, David said:

Being an international player who could potentially appear at a Euros or World Cup will do him no harm when it comes time to negotiate his next contract or secure his next move. That's the only reason he changed his mind.

It would make sense but that shouldn't be a reason to suddenly decide you want to play for Scotland.  Same with all of this nonsense with Anderson and Barnes at Newcastle. Personally I would tell them to get Tae ..

[Great Balls of Shire]

On 10/22/2023 at 11:38 AM, Kmcalpin said:

That tells you a lot about about the state of Scottish golakeeping.

That aside, I've no time whatsoever for Craig Gordon after his antics at Fir Park last season.

His antics were so bad, I can't even remember them.

[Great Balls of Shire]

14 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Gordon hasn't been any good for ages.

He was shite at Celtic.

Roby McCrorie should get himself first team football somewhere and he'll be right in there.

Gordon is a great goalie, even at 41 I'd have him at fp

[Spiderpig]

45 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

Gordon is a great goalie, even at 41 I'd have him at fp

Behave yourself,  he was decent in his day but his day has long gone, he's done as a top level keeper. No doubt a lucrative career in punditry awaits him.

[Great Balls of Shire]

22 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Behave yourself,  he was decent in his day but his day has long gone, he's done as a top level keeper. No doubt a lucrative career in punditry awaits him.

I don't know what he's like post injury but he was great against us for hearts before that  . 

[steelboy]

Gordon's been out for a long time and even if he gets back to a level where he's a better option than Zander Clark for Hearts and Scotland it'll only be for a short time. 

As YaBeezer says McCrorie has the most potential to challenge Gunn. The u21 keeper Slicker had a great game last night and might be a squad option if he can get a regular game somewhere.

[MJC]

17 hours ago, grizzlyg said:

Gunn is better than both but it really grinds me the fact he wasnt least bit interested in playing for Scotland but hey Gordon out for 9 months and suddenly his mind changed 

That’s one of the many reasons I can’t be arsed with international football, players get to choose their nationality if and when it suits them. That defeats the entire purpose of ‘Representing your country’ imo.