Happy Dosser Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 Neil McCann said on Sportscene that Steven McLean was the VAR guy on Saturday so, if true, I'm hardly surprised they made an utter Gove of it all. Collum and McLean: a combo made in hell. Get VAR in the sea. It's costly, does not adhere to its original principle of rectifying obvious mistakes and completely spoils the match experience while we all wait around for some eagle-eyed ninny in a studio to find a reason to justify his existence. As in so many areas of modern life, common sense seems a rare commodity. Like some commenters above, I heard people around me in the POD saying that VAR is putting them off coming to games, which is a woeful state of affairs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 21 minutes ago, pretzel said: Willie's comments should have been, that there was no need to call me over to the monitor Steven as per the rules it's only the scorer we can penalise for handling it. But this is Scottish refs we are talking about, I mean surely after Kettlewell's complaint about the similar incident against County earlier in the season that refs take interest in these types of things. It's just mad to think that if the ball brushed a defender's bicep instead there would not have even been a mention of a penalty. I'm actually feeling quite scunnered by VAR tbh, I know it's the arseholes using it that's to blame but the inconsistencies and looking for any small thing to penalise someone is massively frustrating. I know I'm getting all precious about it but if it continues down the same path I can see myself opting to do something different on a Saturday afternoon. It's all fans on all the other teams forums are talking about and saying much the same thing as us. It's sucked the enjoyment out of the game for me. Maybe we all need to get together and do something about it like an open letter from every fan group to their respective club and the SFA telling them to get it in the bin. I'd even support a day of action by everyone boycotting a game one weekend to send a message. That's how f*****g annoyed and angry I feel right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnstone Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 I’ve said it many times that VAR is ruining the match day experience for fans. I would think every fan in Scotland would want rid of it. Another point we don’t have the proper setup for it either. We have a handful of cameras at games, some stadiums have more cameras than others. How is that a level playing field for anyone? I know this sounds crazy but I think it’s made the refs job harder. That Lennon Miller goal stands every day of the week, yet Collum gets told to go to the monitor and then has a decision to make, where without VAR nobody will even bat an eyelid at this. My mate who is a Celtic fan said there were 5 VAR decisions at parkhead yesterday and every time they are just sitting in the stadium listening to fans booing! How is it in any way improved our game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 In principle, VAR is a great idea and I fully support it but not the way in which its being implemented. I didn't know for example for there are more cameras in some stadia than others...thats simply not fair. VAR is throwing up many issues, that have been identified and discussed on here. What hasn't changed and is now being thrust into the spotlight, is refereeing inconsistencies. One specific example is the handball decisions in the Ross County and Aberdeen games. Now which is it? If the ball hits another player's hand/arm (i.e. not the scorers) on its path into the net - is that a legitimate goal or not? Yes or no? In this particular case, I see no reason whatever why the SFA, this morning, cannot accept and acknowledge that this was an issue on Saturday (I pick my words carefully so as not to criticise officials) and issue a simple statement to clubs, fans and the media to clarify its position. All it needs to say is whether such an incident should be classed as a foul or not. That being the case, was their guidance on this followed in games by officials? As its stands, everyone is confused by this particular issue. Will it happen - NO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfc Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 There's no way there should be this much controversy over something that was brought in to help the game,VAR has been a disaster from the get go and needs to be binned until such time it's going to be used in a way that is fitting for a professional league,sadly in our cause that's likely to never happen as VAR is just another example of how poorly the game in this country is run.im in the same boat as others and that VAR has sucked any enjoyment out of going to the football and the thought of the same next season is grim already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxteth O'Grady Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 Interesting. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68597180 Crawford Allan: Scottish FA head of referees to leave post in summer amid VAR review Last updated on1 minute ago1 minute ago.From the sectionScottish Crawford Allan has overseen the introduction of VAR during his four years in charge Scotland's head of referees, Crawford Allan, is to leave his post at the end of the season as the Scottish FA conducts a review of the role in light of ongoing VAR controversies. The governing body says Allan, who has been in post for four years, is leaving "to pursue new opportunities". SFA chief executive Ian Maxwell admits that "VAR processes need to improve". But he urged all to "work together to alleviate the unsustainable pressure on match officials and VAR operators". 'Ridiculous' to disallow Motherwell goal VAR cost us a point - Hearts' Naismith Maxwell wants "to remove the convenient blame culture attached to subjective or unpopular decisions and to ensure more focus is placed on the entertainers rather than the on-field facilitators". He told the SFA website: "This includes all key external stakeholders having a better understanding of the laws of the game, the lines of intervention for VAR and the adopted guidance within Scottish football, especially in subjective areas such as the handball law." The SFA it has started its search to "ensure an experienced replacement will be in place for the new season". "This will coincide with a planned review of the operational priorities of the department based on the insights to date from VAR implementation, as well as feedback from category one match officials and VAR operators, the Scottish FA's professional game board, the SPFL's competitions working group and the independent review panel," Maxwell said. The chief executive thanked Allan for "his efforts in implementing VAR within Scottish football and guiding refereeing through the Covid-19 pandemic", describing the introduction of video assistant referee system as "a thankless task". Allan considers it "an honour" to have been in charge "during such an historic period of change" following his 30 years as a match official, including 15 years in the top-flight. "While there are refinements and improvements to be made to VAR, as there are in leagues across the world, it has taken a monumental effort from my team at the Scottish FA and the match officials to have it embedded in the Premiership and cup matches at Hampden Park," he said. "VAR is only one aspect of the role, albeit one that can overshadow the positive strides we have taken forward." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 Checking VAR. Decision: Shite Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 40 minutes ago, Toxteth O'Grady said: Interesting. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68597180 Crawford Allan: Scottish FA head of referees to leave post in summer amid VAR review Last updated on1 minute ago1 minute ago.From the sectionScottish Crawford Allan has overseen the introduction of VAR during his four years in charge Scotland's head of referees, Crawford Allan, is to leave his post at the end of the season as the Scottish FA conducts a review of the role in light of ongoing VAR controversies. The governing body says Allan, who has been in post for four years, is leaving "to pursue new opportunities". SFA chief executive Ian Maxwell admits that "VAR processes need to improve". But he urged all to "work together to alleviate the unsustainable pressure on match officials and VAR operators". 'Ridiculous' to disallow Motherwell goal VAR cost us a point - Hearts' Naismith Maxwell wants "to remove the convenient blame culture attached to subjective or unpopular decisions and to ensure more focus is placed on the entertainers rather than the on-field facilitators". He told the SFA website: "This includes all key external stakeholders having a better understanding of the laws of the game, the lines of intervention for VAR and the adopted guidance within Scottish football, especially in subjective areas such as the handball law." The SFA it has started its search to "ensure an experienced replacement will be in place for the new season". "This will coincide with a planned review of the operational priorities of the department based on the insights to date from VAR implementation, as well as feedback from category one match officials and VAR operators, the Scottish FA's professional game board, the SPFL's competitions working group and the independent review panel," Maxwell said. The chief executive thanked Allan for "his efforts in implementing VAR within Scottish football and guiding refereeing through the Covid-19 pandemic", describing the introduction of video assistant referee system as "a thankless task". Allan considers it "an honour" to have been in charge "during such an historic period of change" following his 30 years as a match official, including 15 years in the top-flight. "While there are refinements and improvements to be made to VAR, as there are in leagues across the world, it has taken a monumental effort from my team at the Scottish FA and the match officials to have it embedded in the Premiership and cup matches at Hampden Park," he said. "VAR is only one aspect of the role, albeit one that can overshadow the positive strides we have taken forward." A change for the better perhaps, i doubt it, it will be one at the top out, another from within will be promoted and it will be business as usual. They will appear to tinker with VAR, but it will still be the same shite technology and the same shitey operators implementing it. The whole refereeing set-up including VAR needs ripped out and started again with proper accountability and scrutiny in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 5 hours ago, pretzel said: Willie's comments should have been, that there was no need to call me over to the monitor Steven as per the rules it's only the scorer we can penalise for handling it. But this is Scottish refs we are talking about, I mean surely after Kettlewell's complaint about the similar incident against County earlier in the season that refs take interest in these types of things. It's just mad to think that if the ball brushed a defender's bicep instead there would not have even been a mention of a penalty. I'm actually feeling quite scunnered by VAR tbh, I know it's the arseholes using it that's to blame but the inconsistencies and looking for any small thing to penalise someone is massively frustrating. I know I'm getting all precious about it but if it continues down the same path I can see myself opting to do something different on a Saturday afternoon. The ref can still pull a goal back for handball by a player in the lead up. Of course you my be right, in that Collum has totally F’d up and and done as you suggest. The other option is that he decide it was deliberate hand ball by Bair, which is just as bad or worse than the other possibility. The defender heads the ball (going at a fair speed) on to Bair’s hand/arm from literally inches away so how can it be deliberate hand ball?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1: "Work together to alleviate the unsustainable pressure on match officials and VAR operators." = Stop moaning about ludicrous decisions. 2: "This includes all key external stakeholders having a better understanding of the laws of the game, the lines of intervention for VAR and the adopted guidance within Scottish football, especially in subjective areas such as the handball law." = Managers, players and fans don't understand the laws of the game. Mind you, when it comes to what is or isn't handball, we don't have a feckin clue either, so each referee and VAR operator will continue to make it up as they go along. At which time, we'll refer you to point 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 4 minutes ago, bobbybingo said: 1: "Work together to alleviate the unsustainable pressure on match officials and VAR operators." = Stop moaning about ludicrous decisions. 2: "This includes all key external stakeholders having a better understanding of the laws of the game, the lines of intervention for VAR and the adopted guidance within Scottish football, especially in subjective areas such as the handball law." = Managers, players and fans don't understand the laws of the game. Mind you, when it comes to what is or isn't handball, we don't have a feckin clue either, so each referee and VAR operator will continue to make it up as they go along. At which time, we'll refer you to point 1. That article is just words. If they really believe what they wrote we would be getting clear communications at least post match as to how controversial decisions were arrived at. Basically, help us all understand the rules. However that might result in us all finding out that the refs are totally inconsistent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 2 minutes ago, texanwellfan said: That article is just words. If they really believe what they wrote we would be getting clear communications at least post match as to how controversial decisions were arrived at. Basically, help us all understand the rules. However that might result in us all finding out that the refs are totally inconsistent As I read it, they're admitting there are problems, but they're blaming most of them on other people not understanding the rules. They've done a great job, apparently, so bugger all will change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, Toxteth O'Grady said: Interesting. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68597180 Crawford Allan: Scottish FA head of referees to leave post in summer amid VAR review Last updated on1 minute ago1 minute ago.From the sectionScottish Crawford Allan has overseen the introduction of VAR during his four years in charge Scotland's head of referees, Crawford Allan, is to leave his post at the end of the season as the Scottish FA conducts a review of the role in light of ongoing VAR controversies. The governing body says Allan, who has been in post for four years, is leaving "to pursue new opportunities". SFA chief executive Ian Maxwell admits that "VAR processes need to improve". But he urged all to "work together to alleviate the unsustainable pressure on match officials and VAR operators". 'Ridiculous' to disallow Motherwell goal VAR cost us a point - Hearts' Naismith Maxwell wants "to remove the convenient blame culture attached to subjective or unpopular decisions and to ensure more focus is placed on the entertainers rather than the on-field facilitators". He told the SFA website: "This includes all key external stakeholders having a better understanding of the laws of the game, the lines of intervention for VAR and the adopted guidance within Scottish football, especially in subjective areas such as the handball law." The SFA it has started its search to "ensure an experienced replacement will be in place for the new season". "This will coincide with a planned review of the operational priorities of the department based on the insights to date from VAR implementation, as well as feedback from category one match officials and VAR operators, the Scottish FA's professional game board, the SPFL's competitions working group and the independent review panel," Maxwell said. The chief executive thanked Allan for "his efforts in implementing VAR within Scottish football and guiding refereeing through the Covid-19 pandemic", describing the introduction of video assistant referee system as "a thankless task". Allan considers it "an honour" to have been in charge "during such an historic period of change" following his 30 years as a match official, including 15 years in the top-flight. "While there are refinements and improvements to be made to VAR, as there are in leagues across the world, it has taken a monumental effort from my team at the Scottish FA and the match officials to have it embedded in the Premiership and cup matches at Hampden Park," he said. "VAR is only one aspect of the role, albeit one that can overshadow the positive strides we have taken forward." What a pile of shite. Completely riddled with the blaming of others and zero accountability from them. If they want to fix the issues, the SFA needs to be honest about the inconsistent application of VAR. They should start holding their referees to account publicly through better comms, explaining decisions and/or owning up to mistakes, but they won't as this article suggests. We all know that they need to look at those operating the technology and those making the on-field decisions, not the technology, but that's like asking someone to mark their own homework, and therein lies the problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 I was at Hampden when Israel were adjudged to have scored a perfectly good goal after a cross was deflected off the arm of an Israeli player into the path of the goal scorer. At the time it was explained in great detail that in such circumstances a foul must not be given. The only time a foul should be given for such an accidental handling of the ball by an attacker is if it is the goal scorer that handles. The Law is perfectly clear and so I then had to accept that Ross County were correctly awarded that goal at Fir Park. SK confirmed on Saturday that is also the reason he was given for that goal standing. So what really pisses me off about Saturday is that two qualified officials (at least) ignored the Laws of the game in order to refuse the goal. Either that or they did not know the Laws. Which is worse? Add to that the silence from the Authorities regards a huge error made by their employees. Saturday was not a situation where there should have been any doubt or discussion as to whether a valid goal had been scored. Final part of my rant. Not from our game, but that exact situation was covered in Sky's Ref Watch today and again my understanding of the hand ball law was confirmed. McLean and Collum made an arse of it and at the very least that should be acknowledged by those in charge. But it won't be. I hope Motherwell go public on their discussions with Crawford Allan or whoever has the balls to address the issue. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 7 minutes ago, dennyc said: I was at Hampden when Israel were adjudged to have scored a perfectly good goal after a cross was deflected off the arm of an Israeli player into the path of the goal scorer. At the time it was explained in great detail that in such circumstances a foul must not be given. The only time a foul should be given for such an accidental handling of the ball by an attacker is if it is the goal scorer that handles. The Law is perfectly clear and so I then had to accept that Ross County were correctly awarded that goal at Fir Park. SK confirmed on Saturday that is also the reason he was given for that goal standing. So what really pisses me off about Saturday is that two qualified officials (at least) ignored the Laws of the game in order to refuse the goal. Either that or they did not know the Laws. Which is worse? Add to that the silence from the Authorities regards a huge error made by their employees. Saturday was not a situation where there should have been any doubt or discussion as to whether a valid goal had been scored. Final part of my rant. Not from our game, but that exact situation was covered in Sky's Ref Watch today and again my understanding of the hand ball law was confirmed. McLean and Collum made an arse of it and at the very least that should be acknowledged by those in charge. But it won't be. I hope Motherwell go public on their discussions with Crawford Allan or whoever has the balls to address the issue. Perfect summation. But they have one possible get out of jail card left to play - it was judged to be deliberate handball. If they dare to suggest that was the call, our game's even more screwed than it currently appears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1 minute ago, bobbybingo said: Perfect summation. But they have one possible get out of jail card left to play - it was judged to be deliberate handball. If they dare to suggest that was the call, our game's even more screwed than it currently appears. That thought did cross my mind which is why I hope Motherwell publish any explanation they are given. If that reason is given, then as you say, the ball is burst. I really do hope our Board don't just let this be brushed aside. Imagine that decision denying Celtic or Rangers a goal. The media and Clubs would run with it for weeks. Sad though it sounds, I actually went and reread the IFAB Laws re hand ball just to make sure my understanding was correct. Clear as day. On another point. Anybody thinking the Celtic red card at Tynecastle was harsh needs to read IFAB re dangerous and reckless play. Despite the flack they got from media and ex players, the officials that day only made one error and that was in awarding Celtic their penalty. I despair for Scottish Football because things are not going to improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 4 minutes ago, dennyc said: That thought did cross my mind which is why I hope Motherwell publish any explanation they are given. If that reason is given, then as you say, the ball is burst. I really do hope our Board don't just let this be brushed aside. Imagine that decision denying Celtic or Rangers a goal. The media and Clubs would run with it for weeks. Sad though it sounds, I actually went and reread the IFAB Laws re hand ball just to make sure my understanding was correct. Clear as day. On another point. Anybody thinking the Celtic red card at Tynecastle was harsh needs to read IFAB re dangerous and reckless play. Despite the flack they got from media and ex players, the officials that day only made one error and that was in awarding Celtic their penalty. I despair for Scottish Football because things are not going to improve. Yeah. The statement does have a point regarding some folk not knowing the laws, or choosing to ignore them when it suits. Ex players banging on about 'no malice' or 'accidental' is embarrassing. When they are being paid to give opinions, surely it's not to much to ask they are informed opinions. Saturday's decision is just as embarrassing. As you say, according to the current laws of the game, there was absolutely nothing wrong with that goal, so how can at least two paid, trained officials with the benefit of endless replays make such a pig's ear of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellfan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1 minute ago, bobbybingo said: As you say, according to the current laws of the game, there was absolutely nothing wrong with that goal, so how can at least two paid, trained officials with the benefit of endless replays make such a pig's ear of it? Because they're incompetent and unaccountable fucking morons, protected by higher-paid incompetent and unaccountable fucking morons. The SFA is a self-serving, backslapping lads club, closed to all scrutiny and transparency. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbybingo Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 2 minutes ago, wellfan said: Because they're incompetent and unaccountable fucking morons, protected by higher-paid incompetent and unaccountable fucking morons. The SFA is a self-serving, backslapping lads club, closed to all scrutiny and transparency. No argument there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mortonhallwell Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 Faddy called it one night on Sportscene when he said VAR is not the problem, it's the people operating it. We could have the best VAR system in the world but when people are using flawed judgement such as Bairs "handball" on Saturday, then it's a waste of time and money. Common sense and understanding of the game are sadly lacking. Our refs have been abysmal for years and allowing them to sit in a studio looking at a TV screen just compounds the problem. It's now time to get rid, save some money and acknowledge that our refs are just not up to the job which we knew anyway. Has it improved the game? Most definitely not, in fact it's made things worse so why bother. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 So do we (Motherwell FC) know why Millers goal was disallowed? I hope we have asked why. It’s a reasonable question and per the word salad from authorities an answer would help us better understand the rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, dennyc said: That thought did cross my mind which is why I hope Motherwell publish any explanation they are given. If that reason is given, then as you say, the ball is burst. I really do hope our Board don't just let this be brushed aside. Imagine that decision denying Celtic or Rangers a goal. The media and Clubs would run with it for weeks. Sad though it sounds, I actually went and reread the IFAB Laws re hand ball just to make sure my understanding was correct. Clear as day. On another point. Anybody thinking the Celtic red card at Tynecastle was harsh needs to read IFAB re dangerous and reckless play. Despite the flack they got from media and ex players, the officials that day only made one error and that was in awarding Celtic their penalty. I despair for Scottish Football because things are not going to improve. I went and looked after seeing your post and as mentioned the officials have either deemed it as deliberate hand ball by Bair or just Fkd up by not knowing the rules. Another item I noticed is that it is an offense to to move into a players path in order to obstruct, block or slow down or force change of direction when the ball is not within playing distance of either player. I see that happen a lot now where defenders will do exactly that and yet they get away with it all the time now. I’ve really only seen this become more common this past couple of seasons. I just thought they must have changed the rules on that but apparently not. The refs have decided just not to call it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennyc Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 11 minutes ago, texanwellfan said: I went and looked after seeing your post and as mentioned the officials have either deemed it as deliberate hand ball by Bair or just Fkd up by not knowing the rules. Another item I noticed is that it is an offense to to move into a players path in order to obstruct, block or slow down or force change of direction when the ball is not within playing distance of either player. I see that happen a lot now where defenders will do exactly that and yet they get away with it all the time now. I’ve really only seen this become more common this past couple of seasons. I just thought they must have changed the rules on that but apparently not. The refs have decided just not to call it. Glad you found the IFAB stuff helpful. I'm not saying all the rules are always sensible, especially to anyone who has played football at any level, but it is perfectly obvious that many of the so called experts who we hear on Sportscene and elsewhere have either not read the Laws, or choose to ignore them because they are stuck in the past, or simply have an axe to grind. Reading the IFAB instructions does have a drawback though. It really highlights how uninformed and arrogant our referees are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted March 18 Report Share Posted March 18 10 minutes ago, dennyc said: Glad you found the IFAB stuff helpful. I'm not saying all the rules are always sensible, especially to anyone who has played football at any level, but it is perfectly obvious that many of the so called experts who we hear on Sportscene and elsewhere have either not read the Laws, or choose to ignore them because they are stuck in the past, or simply have an axe to grind. Reading the IFAB instructions does have a drawback though. It really highlights how uninformed and arrogant our referees are. I thought the wording around the handball was pretty Decent, trying to cover it best as possible. Especially noting that hands/arm in a natural position is different depending on the movement of the player. So jumping, sliding, running, tackling, being pushed or falling etc are all different. In essence, or the spirit of the law reads that you get penalized for the following: 1. deliberate hand ball 2. The ball hits your arm/hand when your arms are in an un natural position in order to make yourself larger. 3. Accidental hand ball that puts the ball in the net. 4. Accidental Hand ball that results in the same player putting the ball in the net with another part of their body. none of these applied to our goal or to our PK claim at end of the game. Unfortunately the officials only got 50% right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsterwood Posted March 19 Report Share Posted March 19 Just seen highlights of the goal. Panel all agree it should have been given and also there should have been a Well penalty. That var system could cost us top 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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