2024/25 Ins & Outs Discussion

[Ya Bezzer!]

2 hours ago, bobbybingo said:

Yeah, Turnbull's a mystery. I'd have bet money on him being a Scotland regular by now, but it just isn't happening for him. Postecoglou, Rodgers and Clarke obviously had doubts/issues with him and he's settled into the same sub or subbed routine at Cardiff, but without the goals.

Turnbull has been treated like garbage everywhere he's been, including here.  It's got to effect your confidence.  I mean Turnbull was literally still one of the top scorers in the Scottish Premiership this season and he got bombed out after 9 starts.

It's also worth thinking about the fact that he's had two serious injuries in his career at a relatively early age.

There is no doubt he is a talent though, picking Ryan Jack over him when Jack is over the hill, perma-injured and has one start since last November has got to be a kick in the balls.

[wellup83]

I don't think there's any doubting Turnbull's ability. I believe it's more to do with his laid back style of play and lethargic body language at times. It was clear from the beginning that he was never going to fit into a Postecoglu side with the mantra of "we never stop". I just don't think he displays the energy required to play at the top.

[steelboy]

13 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

 

There is no doubt he is a talent though, picking Ryan Jack over him when Jack is over the hill, perma-injured and has one start since last November has got to be a kick in the balls.

It's not really picking Jack over him. Clarke has made it clear that the attacking midfield roles are for McGinn, Armstrong, McTominay and Christie. He should be an ideal squad player due to his goal threat but Clarke isn't interested in that.  He even resents having to pick Shankland. 

As for Turnbull it's either an attitude problem or he's incapable of doing the running the modern game requires. I think we will see him back in Scotland before long, Campbell as well. 

 

[bobbybingo]

25 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Turnbull has been treated like garbage everywhere he's been, including here.  It's got to effect your confidence.  I mean Turnbull was literally still one of the top scorers in the Scottish Premiership this season and he got bombed out after 9 starts.

It's also worth thinking about the fact that he's had two serious injuries in his career at a relatively early age.

There is no doubt he is a talent though, picking Ryan Jack over him when Jack is over the hill, perma-injured and has one start since last November has got to be a kick in the balls.

By 'treated like garbage' at Parkhead, do you mean he wasn't given a long run as a starter, or are you saying something else has been going on? 

[weeyin]

1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

Maybe they all thought he's just not as good as we think he is, apart from earning loads of Cash his career since he left us has been distinctly underwhelming.

I think that's a wee bit unfair.

While I'm not sure Celtic was the best choice for career development, he was doing OK there until he got injured again. He struggled to get back as a first team starter, partly because the team was winning (and no manager changes that) and partly because he's not necessarily an Angeball player - same reason a lot of Spurs players are being punted this summer.

He did make 100 appearances for them with 25 goals, so not exactly a bust

Cardiff was a terrible move, as they were an average, struggling Championship team when he moved there. The exact opposite of what he needed. Although I appreciate the need he felt for a change of scenery.

He's a confidence player, so I imagine if he finds somewhere he enjoys, his form will pick up again. It just goes to show though that we are pretty good at getting the best out of players.

[Mad Dog]

Good discussion for the ex-Well player thread.

[Spiderpig]

57 minutes ago, weeyin said:

I think that's a wee bit unfair.

While I'm not sure Celtic was the best choice for career development, he was doing OK there until he got injured again. He struggled to get back as a first team starter, partly because the team was winning (and no manager changes that) and partly because he's not necessarily an Angeball player - same reason a lot of Spurs players are being punted this summer.

He did make 100 appearances for them with 25 goals, so not exactly a bust

Cardiff was a terrible move, as they were an average, struggling Championship team when he moved there. The exact opposite of what he needed. Although I appreciate the need he felt for a change of scenery.

He's a confidence player, so I imagine if he finds somewhere he enjoys, his form will pick up again. It just goes to show though that we are pretty good at getting the best out of players.

Nah Harsh but fair, OK he scored a few goals at Celtic, but it was obvious he was a fringe player at best and never held down a regular starting place.

As for the Cardiff move, he knew his time at Celtic was up but I get the impression that he was not overwhelmed with offers from any bigger or better clubs so a struggling Championship club might have been his only realistic option.

Time will tell but for me he's a good above average player but not a great one, his next transfer move will define the direction his career is heading, so let's hope its a good one.

[wellfan]

Take the Turnbull chat to the correct thread, and let's discuss the return of Campbell here.

[dennyc]

1 hour ago, weeyin said:

I think that's a wee bit unfair.

While I'm not sure Celtic was the best choice for career development, he was doing OK there until he got injured again. He struggled to get back as a first team starter, partly because the team was winning (and no manager changes that) and partly because he's not necessarily an Angeball player - same reason a lot of Spurs players are being punted this summer.

He did make 100 appearances for them with 25 goals, so not exactly a bust

Cardiff was a terrible move, as they were an average, struggling Championship team when he moved there. The exact opposite of what he needed. Although I appreciate the need he felt for a change of scenery.

He's a confidence player, so I imagine if he finds somewhere he enjoys, his form will pick up again. It just goes to show though that we are pretty good at getting the best out of players.

I think this is a much fairer assessment of the situation.

Also it is sad to sense the joy that some fans seem to take from his recent struggles. Joining Celtic appears to be a move that some just cannot forgive.

Funny how nobody has mentioned that until he got injured in the League Cup final, he was the only outfield player that featured in every Ange team selection that season. In his absence McGregor O'Riley and Hatate eventually became automatic first choices, in a winning team. Despite that, Turnbull when fit still scored a fair number of goals as a substitute, often only featuring for 20 minutes or so.  Since coming back from serious surgery and having to learn how to walk again he has earned a lot of money, has enjoyed numerous league and cup winners medals, played and scored in European ties in front of a full Celtic Park. Hardly a disaster or failure.

Admittedly he has not progressed as most, but perhaps not all, Motherwell fans had hoped but I honestly believe that in time he will return to a higher level. I agree Cardiff was not the best move for him but at least he no longer has to listen to Brendan Rogers every day. Hibs or Aberdeen next up possibly.

And as this is Ins and Outs chat as wellfan is keen to point out....I would be delighted if Campbell or Turnbull elected to return to rebuild their careers. But I think iAberdeen, Hearts, Hibs would be more likely destinations than Motherwell. 

[grizzlyg]

1 hour ago, wellfan said:

Take the Turnbull chat to the correct thread, and let's discuss the return of Campbell here.

Is that not former players thread also? (Though would love him back)

[TheoBair14]

C’Mon Motherwell bring him back!!! 

[wellgirl]

29 minutes ago, TheoBair14 said:

C’Mon Motherwell bring him back!!! 

He's still contracted elsewhere and he'll be returning there. 

[MJC]

51 minutes ago, TheoBair14 said:

C’Mon Motherwell bring him back!!! 

*Kevin van Veen’s agent likes this post.*

How do you say “Hey Kev, you know those mugs Motherwell yeah? Well there’s already some posts on their biggest online fans forum begging them to bring you back so you can recreate your purple patch from your previous spell there” in Dutch? 🤔

[bobbybingo]

12 minutes ago, MJC said:

*Kevin van Veen’s agent likes this post.*

How do you say “Hey Kev, you know those mugs Motherwell yeah? Well there’s already some posts on their biggest online fans forum begging them to bring you back so you can recreate your purple patch from your previous spell there” in Dutch? 🤔

No idea, but the Dutch word for one is een, if that helps.

[steelboy]

39 minutes ago, MJC said:

*Kevin van Veen’s agent likes this post.*

How do you say “Hey Kev, you know those mugs Motherwell yeah? Well there’s already some posts on their biggest online fans forum begging them to bring you back so you can recreate your purple patch from your previous spell there” in Dutch? 🤔

Why are we mugs? We got one good season and one unbelievable season out of him then a big transfer fee.

I'd take him back no bother. He's a confidence player and he likes it here. We would be mad not to do it if his wages are realistic. It's not like he's been shite at Killie he just hasn't played. 218 minutes over 13 sub appearances. 

 

[MJC]

4 minutes ago, steelboy said:

Why are we mugs? We got one good season and one unbelievable season out of him then a big transfer fee.

I'd take him back no bother. He's a confidence player and he likes it here. We would be mad not to do it if his wages are realistic. It's not like he's been shite at Killie he just hasn't played. 218 minutes over 13 sub appearances. 

 

I get your point, but he’s 33 or will be in two weeks time. And I absolutely get the confidence player argument, he clearly is a player who plays better the more confident he is. 
 

The issue for me is that he had his best spell in his career with us, especially in the second half of last season and for that and for his overall spell with us he’s a player who I will always view as one of the best we’ve ever had. We got the best of him, I don’t think that can be disputed. 
 

If we were to bring him back (and I don’t think we will tbh) then he would be similar to Faddy in the sense that he is immediately and always would be on ‘the pedestal’ with a section of the club and the fanbase so he would be coming back here past his best but his previous reputation with us would ensure that he could do no wrong in the eyes of too many and as a result he would get game time and leeway that he wouldn’t get if he was anyone else, if he wasn’t delivering for us. 
 

He came to us as ‘The Budget Bergkamp’ and left having given us the two best seasons of his career. He returned to the Netherlands to Groningen where he made little impact and was then loaned to Kilmarnock in the same league where he had enjoyed the best spell of his career and did absolutely nothing. I know we as a club have this ‘culture’ of backward looking when it comes to signing players and appointing managers, but I see absolutely no benefit in bringing Kevin van Veen back to the club other than sentimental reasons.

No player is bigger than the club. 

[wellfan]

"More than a squad worth of offers have been made so far"

 

[wellgirl]

22 minutes ago, MJC said:

I get your point, but he’s 33 or will be in two weeks time. And I absolutely get the confidence player argument, he clearly is a player who plays better the more confident he is. 
 

The issue for me is that he had his best spell in his career with us, especially in the second half of last season and for that and for his overall spell with us he’s a player who I will always view as one of the best we’ve ever had. We got the best of him, I don’t think that can be disputed. 
 

If we were to bring him back (and I don’t think we will tbh) then he would be similar to Faddy in the sense that he is immediately and always would be on ‘the pedestal’ with a section of the club and the fanbase so he would be coming back here past his best but his previous reputation with us would ensure that he could do no wrong in the eyes of too many and as a result he would get game time and leeway that he wouldn’t get if he was anyone else, if he wasn’t delivering for us. 
 

He came to us as ‘The Budget Bergkamp’ and left having given us the two best seasons of his career. He returned to the Netherlands to Groningen where he made little impact and was then loaned to Kilmarnock in the same league where he had enjoyed the best spell of his career and did absolutely nothing. I know we as a club have this ‘culture’ of backward looking when it comes to signing players and appointing managers, but I see absolutely no benefit in bringing Kevin van Veen back to the club other than sentimental reasons.

No player is bigger than the club. 

I agree and I don't think we could afford him either. The age thing isn't an issue for me. We just can't afford his wages. If Killie were paying him 10k a week irrespective of who was paying most of it. We aren't going to be able to afford anywhere near that. Time we moved on from him 

[Kmcalpin]

25 minutes ago, wellfan said:

"More than a squad worth of offers have been made so far"

This covers players in all positions according to BC. 

[steelboy]

35 minutes ago, MJC said:

 

He came to us as ‘The Budget Bergkamp’ and left having given us the two best seasons of his career. He returned to the Netherlands to Groningen where he made little impact and was then loaned to Kilmarnock in the same league where he had enjoyed the best spell of his career and did absolutely nothing. I know we as a club have this ‘culture’ of backward looking when it comes to signing players and appointing managers, but I see absolutely no benefit in bringing Kevin van Veen back to the club other than sentimental reasons.

 

No one is saying he's bigger than the club. You are being overly dramatic.

Even in his horror show of a season he's still score 5 goals in 1198 minutes so 239 minutes per goal which is better than some players who have had good seasons like Spittal, Mandron or Bruce Anderson. There's no reason to think that he's lost his ability because Derek McInnes decided to stick with the players who had already done well for him.

 

[wellgirl]

4 minutes ago, steelboy said:

No one is saying he's bigger than the club. You are being overly dramatic.

Even in his horror show of a season he's still score 5 goals in 1198 minutes so 239 minutes per goal which is better than some players who have had good seasons like Spittal, Mandron or Bruce Anderson. There's no reason to think that he's lost his ability because Derek McInnes decided to stick with the players who had already done well for him.

 

He was out of condition when he went to Killie and he couldn't displace their strikers. We can't afford him plus he will be going back to Holland. It's up to his club whether he goes out on loan again 

[grizzlyg]

Sorry KVV but not for me, not convinced would be as effective but that's just my opinion 

[Big Stall]

On 5/21/2024 at 9:53 PM, David said:

 

It's very difficult to evaluate a goalkeeper or his statistics in isolation without considering the defence in front of him, and the same goes for evaluating many aspects of the defence without considering the goalkeeper's role.

The defence has been a shambles and clearly at fault game in, game out. But, and this is the thing. Kelly has also managed to throw a fair few into his own net this season. Maybe partly feart or affected by the shitshow infront of him, but there is no way he can be absolved of blame this season. He really has been a shaddow of the keeper we had in his first year.

[David]

4 hours ago, Big Stall said:

Maybe partly feart or affected by the shitshow infront of him, but there is no way he can be absolved of blame this season.

As I've said a few times now, I'm certainly not saying he's not had a poor season or should be absolved of blame. The point I'm making is that he's only as good as the defence in front of him, and vice versa. 

It's no real surprise that he's had his better seasons for us when we've had a better defence. 

[texanwellfan]

16 minutes ago, David said:

As I've said a few times now, I'm certainly not saying he's not had a poor season or should be absolved of blame. The point I'm making is that he's only as good as the defence in front of him, and vice versa. 

It's no real surprise that he's had his better seasons for us when we've had a better defence. 

However you want to phrase it, I think it’s fair and accurate to say that Kelly has made more mistakes than any season since he joined us. I put that on him regardless of how good or bad the defense has been.