Motherwell v Aberdeen 16/03/2024

[texanwellfan]

4 minutes ago, bobbybingo said:

1: "Work together to alleviate the unsustainable pressure on match officials and VAR operators."

= Stop moaning about ludicrous decisions.

2: "This includes all key external stakeholders having a better understanding of the laws of the game, the lines of intervention for VAR and the adopted guidance within Scottish football, especially in subjective areas such as the handball law."

= Managers, players and fans don't understand the laws of the game. Mind you, when it comes to what is or isn't handball, we don't have a feckin clue either, so each referee and VAR operator will continue to make it up as they go along. At which time, we'll refer you to point 1.

 

That article is just words. If they really believe what they wrote we would be getting clear communications at least post match as to how controversial decisions were arrived at. Basically, help us all understand the rules. However that might result in us all finding out that the refs are totally inconsistent 

[bobbybingo]

2 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

That article is just words. If they really believe what they wrote we would be getting clear communications at least post match as to how controversial decisions were arrived at. Basically, help us all understand the rules. However that might result in us all finding out that the refs are totally inconsistent 

As I read it, they're admitting there are problems, but they're blaming most of them on other people not understanding the rules. They've done a great job, apparently, so bugger all will change.

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, Toxteth O'Grady said:

Interesting.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68597180

Crawford Allan: Scottish FA head of referees to leave post in summer amid VAR review

Last updated on1 minute ago1 minute ago.From the sectionScottish

Crawford Allan has overseen the introduction of VAR during his four years in charge

Scotland's head of referees, Crawford Allan, is to leave his post at the end of the season as the Scottish FA conducts a review of the role in light of ongoing VAR controversies.

The governing body says Allan, who has been in post for four years, is leaving "to pursue new opportunities".

SFA chief executive Ian Maxwell admits that "VAR processes need to improve".

But he urged all to "work together to alleviate the unsustainable pressure on match officials and VAR operators".

• 'Ridiculous' to disallow Motherwell goal
• VAR cost us a point - Hearts' Naismith

Maxwell wants "to remove the convenient blame culture attached to subjective or unpopular decisions and to ensure more focus is placed on the entertainers rather than the on-field facilitators".

He told the SFA website: "This includes all key external stakeholders having a better understanding of the laws of the game, the lines of intervention for VAR and the adopted guidance within Scottish football, especially in subjective areas such as the handball law."

The SFA it has started its search to "ensure an experienced replacement will be in place for the new season".

"This will coincide with a planned review of the operational priorities of the department based on the insights to date from VAR implementation, as well as feedback from category one match officials and VAR operators, the Scottish FA's professional game board, the SPFL's competitions working group and the independent review panel," Maxwell said.

The chief executive thanked Allan for "his efforts in implementing VAR within Scottish football and guiding refereeing through the Covid-19 pandemic", describing the introduction of video assistant referee system as "a thankless task".

Allan considers it "an honour" to have been in charge "during such an historic period of change" following his 30 years as a match official, including 15 years in the top-flight.

"While there are refinements and improvements to be made to VAR, as there are in leagues across the world, it has taken a monumental effort from my team at the Scottish FA and the match officials to have it embedded in the Premiership and cup matches at Hampden Park," he said.

"VAR is only one aspect of the role, albeit one that can overshadow the positive strides we have taken forward."

What a pile of shite. Completely riddled with the blaming of others and zero accountability from them. 

If they want to fix the issues, the SFA needs to be honest about the inconsistent application of VAR. They should start holding their referees to account publicly through better comms, explaining decisions and/or owning up to mistakes, but they won't as this article suggests.  

We all know that they need to look at those operating the technology and those making the on-field decisions, not the technology, but that's like asking someone to mark their own homework, and therein lies the problem.  

[dennyc]

 I was at Hampden when Israel were adjudged to have scored a perfectly good goal after a cross was deflected off the arm of an Israeli player into the path of the goal scorer. At the time it was explained in great detail that in such circumstances a foul must not be given. The only time a foul should be given for such an accidental handling of the ball by an attacker is if it is the goal scorer that handles. The Law is perfectly clear and so I then had to accept that Ross County were correctly awarded that goal at Fir Park. SK confirmed on Saturday that is also the reason he was given for that goal standing.

So what really pisses me off about Saturday is that two qualified officials (at least) ignored the Laws of the game in order to refuse the goal. Either that or they did not know the Laws. Which is worse? Add to that the silence from the Authorities regards a huge error made by their employees. Saturday was not a situation where there should have been any doubt or discussion as to whether a valid goal had been scored.

Final part of my rant. Not from our game, but that exact situation was covered in Sky's Ref Watch today and again my understanding of the hand ball law was confirmed. McLean and Collum made an arse of it and at the very least that should be acknowledged by those in charge. But it won't be. I hope Motherwell go public on their discussions with Crawford Allan or whoever has the balls to address the issue. 

 

[bobbybingo]

7 minutes ago, dennyc said:

 I was at Hampden when Israel were adjudged to have scored a perfectly good goal after a cross was deflected off the arm of an Israeli player into the path of the goal scorer. At the time it was explained in great detail that in such circumstances a foul must not be given. The only time a foul should be given for such an accidental handling of the ball by an attacker is if it is the goal scorer that handles. The Law is perfectly clear and so I then had to accept that Ross County were correctly awarded that goal at Fir Park. SK confirmed on Saturday that is also the reason he was given for that goal standing.

So what really pisses me off about Saturday is that two qualified officials (at least) ignored the Laws of the game in order to refuse the goal. Either that or they did not know the Laws. Which is worse? Add to that the silence from the Authorities regards a huge error made by their employees. Saturday was not a situation where there should have been any doubt or discussion as to whether a valid goal had been scored.

Final part of my rant. Not from our game, but that exact situation was covered in Sky's Ref Watch today and again my understanding of the hand ball law was confirmed. McLean and Collum made an arse of it and at the very least that should be acknowledged by those in charge. But it won't be. I hope Motherwell go public on their discussions with Crawford Allan or whoever has the balls to address the issue. 

 

Perfect summation. But they have one possible get out of jail card left to play - it was judged to be deliberate handball. If they dare to suggest that was the call, our game's even more screwed than it currently appears.

[dennyc]

1 minute ago, bobbybingo said:

Perfect summation. But they have one possible get out of jail card left to play - it was judged to be deliberate handball. If they dare to suggest that was the call, our game's even more screwed than it currently appears.

That thought did cross my mind which is why I hope Motherwell publish any explanation they are given. If that reason is given, then as you say, the ball is burst. I really do hope our Board don't just let this be brushed aside. Imagine that decision denying Celtic or Rangers a goal. The media and Clubs would run with it for weeks.

Sad though it sounds, I actually went and reread the IFAB Laws re hand ball just to make sure my understanding was correct. Clear as day. On another point. Anybody thinking the Celtic red card at Tynecastle was harsh needs to read IFAB re dangerous and reckless play. Despite the flack they got from media and ex players, the officials that day only made one error and that was in awarding Celtic their penalty. I despair for Scottish Football because things are not going to improve.

[bobbybingo]

4 minutes ago, dennyc said:

That thought did cross my mind which is why I hope Motherwell publish any explanation they are given. If that reason is given, then as you say, the ball is burst. I really do hope our Board don't just let this be brushed aside. Imagine that decision denying Celtic or Rangers a goal. The media and Clubs would run with it for weeks.

Sad though it sounds, I actually went and reread the IFAB Laws re hand ball just to make sure my understanding was correct. Clear as day. On another point. Anybody thinking the Celtic red card at Tynecastle was harsh needs to read IFAB re dangerous and reckless play. Despite the flack they got from media and ex players, the officials that day only made one error and that was in awarding Celtic their penalty. I despair for Scottish Football because things are not going to improve.

Yeah. The statement does have a point regarding some folk not knowing the laws, or choosing to ignore them when it suits. Ex players banging on about 'no malice' or 'accidental' is embarrassing. When they are being paid to give opinions, surely it's not to much to ask they are informed opinions.

Saturday's decision is just as embarrassing. As you say, according to the current laws of the game, there was absolutely nothing wrong with that goal, so how can at least two paid, trained officials with the benefit of endless replays make such a pig's ear of it?

[wellfan]

1 minute ago, bobbybingo said:

As you say, according to the current laws of the game, there was absolutely nothing wrong with that goal, so how can at least two paid, trained officials with the benefit of endless replays make such a pig's ear of it?

Because they're incompetent and unaccountable fucking morons, protected by higher-paid incompetent and unaccountable fucking morons. The SFA is a self-serving, backslapping lads club, closed to all scrutiny and transparency.

[bobbybingo]

2 minutes ago, wellfan said:

Because they're incompetent and unaccountable fucking morons, protected by higher-paid incompetent and unaccountable fucking morons. The SFA is a self-serving, backslapping lads club, closed to all scrutiny and transparency.

No argument there.

[Mortonhallwell]

Faddy called it one night on Sportscene when he said VAR is not the problem, it's the people operating it. We could have the best VAR system in the world but when people are using flawed judgement such as Bairs "handball" on Saturday, then it's a waste of time and money. Common sense and understanding of the game are sadly lacking. 

Our refs have been abysmal for years and allowing them to sit in a studio looking at a TV screen just compounds the problem.

It's now time to get rid, save some money and acknowledge that our refs are just not up to the job which we knew anyway. Has it improved the game? Most definitely not, in fact it's made things worse so why bother.

[texanwellfan]

So do we (Motherwell FC) know why Millers goal was disallowed? I hope we have asked why. It’s a reasonable question and per the word salad from authorities an answer would help us better understand the rules. 

[texanwellfan]

1 hour ago, dennyc said:

That thought did cross my mind which is why I hope Motherwell publish any explanation they are given. If that reason is given, then as you say, the ball is burst. I really do hope our Board don't just let this be brushed aside. Imagine that decision denying Celtic or Rangers a goal. The media and Clubs would run with it for weeks.

Sad though it sounds, I actually went and reread the IFAB Laws re hand ball just to make sure my understanding was correct. Clear as day. On another point. Anybody thinking the Celtic red card at Tynecastle was harsh needs to read IFAB re dangerous and reckless play. Despite the flack they got from media and ex players, the officials that day only made one error and that was in awarding Celtic their penalty. I despair for Scottish Football because things are not going to improve.

I went and looked after seeing your post and as mentioned the officials have either deemed it as deliberate hand ball by Bair or just Fkd up by not knowing the rules. Another item I noticed is that it is an offense to to move into a players path in order to obstruct, block or slow down or force change of direction when the ball is not within playing distance of either player. I see that happen a lot now where defenders will do exactly that and yet they get away with it all the time now. I’ve really only seen this become more common this past couple of seasons.  
 

I just thought they must have changed the rules on that but apparently not. The refs have decided just not to call it. 

[dennyc]

11 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

I went and looked after seeing your post and as mentioned the officials have either deemed it as deliberate hand ball by Bair or just Fkd up by not knowing the rules. Another item I noticed is that it is an offense to to move into a players path in order to obstruct, block or slow down or force change of direction when the ball is not within playing distance of either player. I see that happen a lot now where defenders will do exactly that and yet they get away with it all the time now. I’ve really only seen this become more common this past couple of seasons.  
 

I just thought they must have changed the rules on that but apparently not. The refs have decided just not to call it. 

Glad you found the IFAB stuff helpful. I'm not saying all the rules are always sensible, especially to anyone who has played football at any level, but it is perfectly obvious that many of the so called experts who we hear on Sportscene and elsewhere have either not read the Laws, or choose to ignore them because they are stuck in the past, or simply have an axe to grind.  Reading the IFAB instructions does have a drawback though. It really highlights how uninformed and arrogant our referees are.

[texanwellfan]

10 minutes ago, dennyc said:

Glad you found the IFAB stuff helpful. I'm not saying all the rules are always sensible, especially to anyone who has played football at any level, but it is perfectly obvious that many of the so called experts who we hear on Sportscene and elsewhere have either not read the Laws, or choose to ignore them because they are stuck in the past, or simply have an axe to grind.  Reading the IFAB instructions does have a drawback though. It really highlights how uninformed and arrogant our referees are.

I thought the wording around the handball was pretty Decent, trying to cover it best as possible. Especially noting that hands/arm in a natural position is different depending on the movement of the player. So jumping, sliding, running, tackling, being pushed or falling etc are all different. In essence, or the spirit of the law reads that you get penalized for the following:

1. deliberate hand ball

2. The ball hits your arm/hand when your arms are in an un natural position in order to make yourself larger. 
3. Accidental hand ball that puts the ball in the net. 
4. Accidental Hand ball that results in the same player putting the ball in the net with another part of their body. 
 

none of these applied to our goal or to our PK claim at end of the game. Unfortunately the officials only got 50% right. 

[robsterwood]

Just seen highlights of the goal. Panel all agree it should have been given and also there should have been a Well penalty. That var system could cost us top 6.

[Yabba's Turd]

You're saying we got a benefit from a wrong decision? Don't recall many of those

[robsterwood]

2 hours ago, wellgirl said:

But we've had VAR decisions that have worked in our favour too. I completely agree that goal should have been given but we've benefited from VAR over this season too 

Want consistency. The hand ball rule should be looked at. It keeps getting interpreted differently. I rather we win fair than got unfair decisions too.

[Stuwell2]

It would be interesting to see what the league table would look like if the goals/penalties that were allowed/disallowed were left as the original on field decisions. 
would we be better off or worse off? 
Obviously this would still be inaccurate as sending offs etc which potential changed games can’t be taken into account. 

[wellsince75]

VAR - hands up for those who think it's enhanced the game. ???................

Given the clubs are funding this, it would be reasonable for them to vote on whether it stays, goes or changes.  If changes it would have to be used sparingly for obvious errors only, and frankly offers very little value. 

Other than giving us something else to moan and groan about I don't see any tangible value.
 

[Spiderpig]

50 minutes ago, wellsince75 said:

VAR - hands up for those who think it's enhanced the game. ???................

Given the clubs are funding this, it would be reasonable for them to vote on whether it stays, goes or changes.  If changes it would have to be used sparingly for obvious errors only, and frankly offers very little value. 

Other than giving us something else to moan and groan about I don't see any tangible value.
 

If VAR was used for its original intended purpose, ie clear and obvious errors in the build up to goals, the technology was the best available and the VAR officials were fully trained and competent then it could be a very useful aid to referees etc. This along with full disclosure after the game on the reasons for decisions made, referees being allowed to explain the reasoning etc, would improve the game and fan experience.

However what we got in Scotland was a hastily cobbled together shambles of suspect technology, inconsistent application of the laws of the game, poorly trained officials and a culture of secrecy with no explanations or censure for blatantly bad decisions. So until the SFA admits it made a James Hunt of it and starts again to ensure its implemented and operated as it should be it will continue to ruin the game and fan experience, this of course assumes the SFA will take effective action but as we all know that won't happen, they have more important things to organise, ie the expenses paid freebies to Germany in the Summer for all the committee members.

[Kmcalpin]

7 hours ago, wellgirl said:

Yes. There was a list online a couple of months ago showing decisions given that were later shown that shouldn't have stood for all the spl clubs. Think two penalties for us. 

There was indeed. One that was mentioned was a decision to rule out a Hearts goal at Tynecastle. Its also important to note that the scope of the "review" was limited to decisions made, not those that were missed. The list was a sample and as such "hand picked". There was no mention, for example, of the last minute penalty claim against Aberdeen which was missed because the cameras were switched off before the end of the game. I would take that list with a spoonful of salt.

[santheman]

As much as the inconsistencies in interpreting the rules annoys me it's the time it takes that really boils my piss. I know both things are interlinked and sometimes a decision isn't always as clear cut as it seems but by christ a 3/4 minute lull in the game kills the atmosphere stone dead. More annoying if you're in the ascendancy at the time and you lose any momentum you have and yes, I realise that can work both ways but still shite from a spectators point of view.

[wellfan]

1 hour ago, santheman said:

As much as the inconsistencies in interpreting the rules annoys me it's the time it takes that really boils my piss.

If it takes longer than 30 seconds to identify a clear and obvious error via VAR, then it's not a clear and obvious error and play should continue. It's that simple, but the twats in the video booth are intent on re-refereeing games to justify their stolen wage and fuel their self-important incompetence. 

[dennyc]

What needs to be addressed is that two of our most experienced officials either do not know the Laws of the game or chose to ignore them. Both options are shocking.  Yes, the time taken is nonsense. Yes, all teams have benefited or lost out at times,us included. But the arrogant refusal by the Authorities to address incompetence (at best) is an insult to every single fan who pays hard earned money to support football. Ourselves, Hearts, Hibs, St Mirren, St Johnstone have all suffered decisions that go way beyond simple human error or interpretation. But nothing changes. 

[FirParkCornerExile]

6 hours ago, santheman said:

As much as the inconsistencies in interpreting the rules annoys me it's the time it takes that really boils my piss. I know both things are interlinked and sometimes a decision isn't always as clear cut as it seems but by christ a 3/4 minute lull in the game kills the atmosphere stone dead. More annoying if you're in the ascendancy at the time and you lose any momentum you have and yes, I realise that can work both ways but still shite from a spectators point of view.

If it take 3/4 minutes to decide,  its not a clear and obvious error the decision should stand. They should have 90 seconds to review any incident if they cant make the call by the 90 second mark the original decision stands.