grumpy Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 10 hours ago, weeyin said: Aye, I'm not a fan of VAR and would be happy to get rid of it, but while it's being used that was a pretty normal offside decision. He was active and interfered with Thompson, so under today's rules it was offside. No VAR and it would have been a goal. Likewise, no VAR and there would have been no sending off, but under today's rules it was a clear red. Dundee's form all season has been scoring first and losing late goals, so it was smart of us to go at them towards the end even with our 10 men. And still on course for 5 wins out of 5 post-split. I agree, mostly, with that. The exception is the offside goal, linesman (I refuse to call them assistant referees as they don't assist much) rarely now call tight offside decisions because they assume VAR will bail them out, before VAR was introduced that may have been flagged, although I doubt it given the standard of officiating. A prime example of inconsistencies in the VAR system is the Aberdeen goal disallowed yesterday because of a handball in the build up, exactly the same as a Ross County goal v us last year when we were told only a hand ball by the goal scorer would cause the goal to be chopped / chalked off. So yes, get VAR to feck. *Edit* Just watched the highlights above and it looks like for their goal the goal scorer handles the ball, so it should have been 2-0 to the good guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 Just watched the TV highlights again and I'm more convinced than ever that VAR got it right. Clark Robertson is behind Dom Thompson and as he advances towards the ball he "touches" the latter's back with his hand/arm - maybe not quite a push. At that point, he makes Thompson aware that someone is behind him and is therefore interfering with play. There's also the challenge element to it and distraction of the Ox. Cast iron offside and I'm surprised there's been so much debate about it. Tony Docherty is a man under pressure right now and beginning to sound like SK in the final days of his reign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 40 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said: Just watched the TV highlights again and I'm more convinced than ever that VAR got it right. Clark Robertson is behind Dom Thompson and as he advances towards the ball he "touches" the latter's back with his hand/arm - maybe not quite a push. At that point, he makes Thompson aware that someone is behind him and is therefore interfering with play. There's also the challenge element to it and distraction of the Ox. Cast iron offside and I'm surprised there's been so much debate about it. Tony Docherty is a man under pressure right now and beginning to sound like SK in the final days of his reign. That was my take on it as well Dave, maybe a bit harsh but the correct decision. The more important thing to be debating is how on earth Casey never scored right at the death 6yds out and an open goal, that was a shocker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 13 hours ago, texanwellfan said: I thought yellow was fine. I’d have to watch again but my initial view was that he was doing block tackle but Dundee players speed/momentum got him there sooner than our player expected. Regarding their “no goal” ball came in from the shy and was headed goalwards. There was a player in offside position behind Thompson who made half hearted attempt to come and get the ball and I think they ruled it out for player in offside position interfering with play. Pretty soft, I’d be raging if was us and got disallowed for that. Aye watched the "no goal" again. The Dundee player IS still offside when the ball is headed forwarded. Its very marginal though and not at all obvious on first viewing. He is trying to close Thompson down though and could be considered "active" but he doesnt play the ball and its Thompsons poor clearance that results in it falling to Portales. It probably is technically the correct decision, but I dont think its a clear an obvious error feom the referee, so if VAR dont get involved, I dont think anyone is talking about it. We defo got away with one. Re the red card, I dont think Koutroumbis has intent to harm his opponent but he catches him really high. Its just a really poor challenge. I wouldnt even appeal that one. Its not of the Balmer variety where there was some mitigation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 6 minutes ago, Spiderpig said: That was my take on it as well Dave, maybe a bit harsh but the correct decision. The more important thing to be debating is how on earth Casey never scored right at the death 6yds out and an open goal, that was a shocker. To be fair to Casey, TJ should have squared it to him for the tap in before it broke off the keeper. He just gets his feet all wrong which, at that point in the game, I can forgive him. Still shoulda scored though! 😆 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 3 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said: Aye watched the "no goal" again. The Dundee player IS still offside when the ball is headed forwarded. Its very marginal though and not at all obvious on first viewing. He is trying to close Thompson down though and could be considered "active" but he doesnt play the ball and its Thompsons poor clearance that results in it falling to Portales. It probably is technically the correct decision, but I dont think its a clear an obvious error feom the referee, so if VAR dont get involved, I dont think anyone is talking about it. We defo got away with one. Re the red card, I dont think Koutroumbis has intent to harm his opponent but he catches him really high. Its just a really poor challenge. I wouldnt even appeal that one. Its not of the Balmer variety where there was some mitigation. Agree, would not appeal it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cambo97 Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 4 hours ago, grumpy said: I agree, mostly, with that. The exception is the offside goal, linesman (I refuse to call them assistant referees as they don't assist much) rarely now call tight offside decisions because they assume VAR will bail them out, before VAR was introduced that may have been flagged, although I doubt it given the standard of officiating. A prime example of inconsistencies in the VAR system is the Aberdeen goal disallowed yesterday because of a handball in the build up, exactly the same as a Ross County goal v us last year when we were told only a hand ball by the goal scorer would cause the goal to be chopped / chalked off. So yes, get VAR to feck. *Edit* Just watched the highlights above and it looks like for their goal the goal scorer handles the ball, so it should have been 2-0 to the good guys. I think that's unfair, they are instructed to not call tight (or even obvious) decisions and let VAR decide later, which is fair enough as many tight decision given have would been awarded by the original decision then would have been declared offside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Dosser Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 Delighted with yesterday's victory since I didn't think we would win the first two games post-split and was resigned to a few more nerve-shredding weeks. Wimmer has done really well to grind out the points with a poor squad further hampered by an incredibly bad run of injuries while trying to cope with a different football culture and language . At times I even felt he might have regretted taking the job so I'm glad things have turned out well in the end and we have avoided relegation. I hope he now has plenty of time to concentrate on rebuilding for next year and has some specific signing targets in mind because it's obvious the overall ability isn't there at the moment. I'll be renewing my season ticket (which was frankly in doubt given the dreadful football on offer for most of this season and the general downward slide in quality at Fir Park) because it could be interesting seeing what the new manager will do as he tries to mould a new side without the pressure and distraction of involvment in European competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelmaninOZ Posted May 4 Author Report Share Posted May 4 2 minutes ago, Happy Dosser said: Delighted with yesterday's victory since I didn't think we would win the first two games post-split and was resigned to a few more nerve-shredding weeks. Wimmer has done really well to grind out the points with a poor squad further hampered by an incredibly bad run of injuries while trying to cope with a different football culture and language . At times I even felt he might have regretted taking the job so I'm glad things have turned out well in the end and we have avoided relegation. I hope he now has plenty of time to concentrate on rebuilding for next year and has some specific signing targets in mind because it's obvious the overall ability isn't there at the moment. I'll be renewing my season ticket (which was frankly in doubt given the dreadful football on offer for most of this season and the general downward slide in quality at Fir Park) because it could be interesting seeing what the new manager will do as he tries to mould a new side without the pressure and distraction of involvment in European competition. Well said pal SIWY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpy Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 51 minutes ago, cambo97 said: I think that's unfair, they are instructed to not call tight (or even obvious) decisions and let VAR decide later, which is fair enough as many tight decision given have would been awarded by the original decision then would have been declared offside. You are correct, that is the instruction, and they do mostly (but not always) let the play go to a conclusion before raising the flag. My point was more that we don't know what the decision would have been in a non-VAR universe as the linesman didn't need to make a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 13 minutes ago, grumpy said: You are correct, that is the instruction, and they do mostly (but not always) let the play go to a conclusion before raising the flag. My point was more that we don't know what the decision would have been in a non-VAR universe as the linesman didn't need to make a decision. But I think he does have to make a decision. If he thought it was offside he should have raised his flag once Dundee scored so that the ref would know and be able to award Motherwell the free kick. He never raised his flag and so pre VAR the goal would have stood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizoxy Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 Surprised at the level of doubt remaining on the disallowed goal. Their player was actively involved in play, he was challenging Dom for the ball. You don't need to touch the ball for that to be considered active, and whether he distracted the goalie is moot, he came back from an offside positi9n to be involved in play. This is from the FA "player in an offside position at the moment the ball is played or touched* by a team-mate is only penalised on becoming involved in active play by: ...usual stuff, then: challenging an opponent for the ball or clearly attempting to play a ball which is close when this action impacts on an opponent or making an obvious action which clearly impacts on the ability of an opponent to play the ball" You see similar given when a guy comes back to challenge for a header from a kick out or a long ball, just jumping to challenge with no chance of winning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 I was more discussing the way that officials now operate in general as raised in Grumpy’s post. I’m good with the decision in our game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orinoco Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 Pretty sure he's returned to his parent club. Also don't think he had the best of attitude, according to someone in the background. Don't think we have missed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 2 hours ago, wellgirl said: We have been poor over the season - completely agree. But one thing about Motherwell is that they never give up. We've been hugely unlucky with injuries too as people know. I actually think we have some very decent players who just lost confidence and its been that way for a while now. Obviously the injuries to our strikers, Miller and Ox didn't help. Think we badly missed Spittal too although I'm not bothered at the predicament Hearts are in I'll be renewing also If our better results were more spread out throughout the season we would all think this season had been fine, we have more points than last season with three games to go. I’ll get my ticket organised this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 Just now, ropy said: If our better results were more spread out throughout the season we would all think this season had been fine, we have more points than last season with three games to go. I’ll get my ticket organised this week. Absolutely this. There is still a chance we could break the 50 point barrier, which would be quite remarkable given how shite most of us feel the season has been. Signed up for another year of misery today. Up The 'Well! 😍😍😍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 3 minutes ago, wellgirl said: The emotional roller coaster you mean No, Im being glass half empty today for a change! 😆😆😆 But we are a great wee club! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 10 minutes ago, ropy said: If our better results were more spread out throughout the season we would all think this season had been fine, we have more points than last season with three games to go. Chat GPT made this a lost easier than the old days when I needed to calculate it manually. In the 12 team Scottish Premiership, our average position has been 7th. In the old, 10 team SPL, our average position was 6th. So statistically this has been a pretty average season. Wrapping up 7th spot would be a decent way to close things out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 1 hour ago, weeyin said: Chat GPT made this a lost easier than the old days when I needed to calculate it manually. In the 12 team Scottish Premiership, our average position has been 7th. In the old, 10 team SPL, our average position was 6th. So statistically this has been a pretty average season. Wrapping up 7th spot would be a decent way to close things out. I think sometimes the quality of the football on display makes it feel like we are worse than our league position reflects. I thought we played some decent stuff in spells yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 49 minutes ago, texanwellfan said: I think sometimes the quality of the football on display makes it feel like we are worse than our league position reflects. I thought we played some decent stuff in spells yesterday. I think it's more of a problem with the quality of the league as a whole rather than Motherwell as a team. Its becoming a bore fest punctuated by the odd moment of brilliance and made worse by VAR. If you read some of the other teams forums their fans are all saying exactly the same things we are and it'll probably be exactly the same next season and the season after that and the season................ Hopefully Wimmer can bring in some magic fairy dust in the close season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuwell2 Posted May 4 Report Share Posted May 4 39 minutes ago, santheman said: I think it's more of a problem with the quality of the league as a whole rather than Motherwell as a team. Its becoming a bore fest punctuated by the odd moment of brilliance and made worse by VAR. If you read some of the other teams forums their fans are all saying exactly the same things we are and it'll probably be exactly the same next season and the season after that and the season................ Hopefully Wimmer can bring in some magic fairy dust in the close season. Got to agree with you regarding the league, the closeness of the teams through 3-12 makes most teams play negative tactics most weeks to try and ensure staying up at the end of the season over attacking football trying for a win week in week out. On the subject of VAR I feel that yes it has a negative impact in that it holds the game up and hasn’t improved the inconsistency of referees but overall I feel that -mostly- the correct/incorrect decisions cancel each other out and as such it should be binned until we get better referees. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Grew Posted May 5 Report Share Posted May 5 I couldn’t give a monkey’s chuff about the complaining and moaning from Dundee and the media concerning their 2nd goal being chalked off. How many outrageous decisions have we been on the end of this season with referees and VAR. Jeez there were two absolute howlers in one game a couple of weeks ago against Kilmarnock and both were wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizoxy Posted May 5 Report Share Posted May 5 2 hours ago, El Grew said: I couldn’t give a monkey’s chuff about the complaining and moaning from Dundee and the media concerning their 2nd goal being chalked off. How many outrageous decisions have we been on the end of this season with referees and VAR. Jeez there were two absolute howlers in one game a couple of weeks ago against Kilmarnock and both were wrong. Balmers head knock against dundee is up there. I'm sure if you ask supporters of every club, they will all say they've been shafted by VAR more than others this season, while ignoring the instances were they were beneficiaries of the shafting, like dundee with the above. It feels like we've got hosed more than assisted, but maybe I'm biased. A table of who had the most instances of "they got that one wrong" on the var review would he interesting. As far as the quality of games goes, we've had spells of good play all season, but have been too quick to revert to the panic punt, or backpass, when under pressure. The forced chopping and changing of the lineup can't have helped either. As mentioned above, no other team is playing like prime man city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
well_said Posted May 5 Report Share Posted May 5 6 minutes ago, fizoxy said: Balmers head knock against dundee is up there. I'm sure if you ask supporters of every club, they will all say they've been shafted by VAR more than others this season, while ignoring the instances were they were beneficiaries of the shafting, like dundee with the above. It feels like we've got hosed more than assisted, but maybe I'm biased. A table of who had the most instances of "they got that one wrong" on the var review would he interesting. As far as the quality of games goes, we've had spells of good play all season, but have been too quick to revert to the panic punt, or backpass, when under pressure. The forced chopping and changing of the lineup can't have helped either. As mentioned above, no other team is playing like prime man city. I'm sure the green bigots will claim that one because the whole world is against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pettywulliegrew-2 Posted May 6 Report Share Posted May 6 14 hours ago, El Grew said: I couldn’t give a monkey’s chuff about the complaining and moaning from Dundee and the media concerning their 2nd goal being chalked off. How many outrageous decisions have we been on the end of this season with referees and VAR. Jeez there were two absolute howlers in one game a couple of weeks ago against Kilmarnock and both were wrong. The standard of Scottish referees is shocking…..and it’s the same idiots officiating in VAR that are making the same mistakes on the park…..so it was nice to benefit for a change Willie Collon was still arguing that Balmers challenge against Killie was a straight red card even after if had been reversed on appeal Sky sports reviewed the incident on Saturday and all pundits agreed it was a poor decision……. And all also agreed that if Thompson had just cleared the ball properly……it would have never happened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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