That Old Chestnut - Do We Move Or Do We Stay

[weeyin]

11 minutes ago, Onthefringes said:

Basing opposition due existing transport configuration and an unwillingness to envisage what could be, the parochial views don’t add any value to the discussion

I don't think it's parochial to look at the investment (or lack of) in the local infrastructure in the last 25 years and have concerns about the likelihood of future spending. 

[Onthefringes]

7 hours ago, weeyin said:

I don't think it's parochial to look at the investment (or lack of) in the local infrastructure in the last 25 years and have concerns about the likelihood of future spending. 

🤔 It’s parochial in its truest sense of narrow, limited, or provincial outlook, focusing only on those issues rather than broader perspectives

Transport logistics being described are an issue for Ravenscraig and been there since early construction due design and bad management in an area that was the largest development site of its kind in Europe when created.

Would be remiss of the club not to explore opportunities. Were the decision made to stay at Fir Park, it’s arguable it’s not the win the insular of thinking are proposing - nothing in their argument I’ve read is of major benefit to the club.

[FirParkCornerExile]

11 hours ago, Jonesy said:

That would be a start but doesn't solve how anyone is getting there when there's no bus and the train stations are at least 30-40 minutes walk away. 

What about if all these other pubs start closing because they lose out on all the passing trade instead now stuck in the middle of nowhere, half way to Cleland, every other week?

There's much more to ripping a club out of its community than just making sure we have a decent pub incorporated and some office blocks to rent 365 days a year.

Motherwell are a business, its not their responsibility to ensure local pubs remain profitable and stay open. Motherwell need to look after their own finances. I take the point on transport.

[joewarkfanclub]

There seems to be a bit of polarisation starting to appear which I dont think is helpful to the debate.

Its perfectly feasible to want to move to a new site whilst pointing out the difficulties that would present.

Its also perfectly feasible to want to remain at Fir Park but accepting the limitations that presents.

Finances, willingness of the local authority and other outside agencies to co-operate will all be huge factors in whatever decision the club eventually make (or are able to make).

What is for sure, is that doing nothing is a non starter.

I think we need to accept there are no right or wrong answers/opinions in this and circumstances will dictate.

Hopefully we get to see what the feasibility study says fairly quickly.

[dennyc]

For me it is about thinking long term. Had that been the criteria under previous Boards then I doubt we would be having this conversation. And although we would have incurred major expenditure at that time (although much more local and government support would likely have been available), we would not have subsequently wasted millions papering over the cracks. And to what effect? We are now structurally in a worse condition than we were way back then.

So if we do stay where we are, what exactly can be done to provide that long term sustainability and negate the ongoing draining of funds maintaining a sub standard Fir Park? The restrictions of being in a residential area, limiting options, is something I don't see changing. Would reconstruction costs be less than actually relocating? Could reconstruction provide additional income streams?

Someone highlighted that Falkirk lease their main stand from the Local Authority, whilst owning outright the other Stands. The Local Authority having use of parts of the main stand for their own use at times. That feels pretty innovative to me, and a way of reducing initial expenditure as I assume the LA bore the cost of the construction of that main stand? Could Lanarkshire provide similar support, perhaps with an option for the Club to buy further down the line? Could car park income fund help fund that outlay over time?

At least we are now looking at how to move forward and no longer burying our heads in the sand. Well done to the Board for seeking solutions. 

 

 

[weeyin]

Talking about transport infrastructure, read this today about Everton's new stadium:

Everton are asking fans to complete “experience surveys” after every home game this season. The feedback about the stadium has been overwhelmingly positive, unsurprising given the club spent approximately £800m to build one of the finest venues in Europe, and will shape changes that can be made.

The main criticism in the surveys, and from the Fan Advisory Board’s meetings with the club, has centred on the transport infrastructure around Hill Dickinson Stadium.

 

[wellon]

Not an expert on this debate, but is it a) build a new stadium,  be skint and possible relegation , if fp sold, use money on new park?

b) patch up fp as best as and use money made from this year on team? 

It would always be b for me , I've oversimplified it, I know but....

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, wellon said:

Not an expert on this debate, but is it a) build a new stadium,  be skint and possible relegation , if fp sold, use money on new park?

b) patch up fp as best as and use money made from this year on team? 

It would always be b for me , I've oversimplified it, I know but....

I'd like to know the annual  maintenance costs of Fir Park. I'd wager it runs into 6 figures easily. The cost of patching up the POD doesn't bear thinking about as its long past that stage.

[texanwellfan]

Whatever route we go, we won’t be able to fund it ourselves. What are our options for funding a major renovation or new stadium? Looking at minimum 50M perhaps closer to 100M for new build. Not sure that major renovation would be much cheaper. 
 New build you could still play at Fir park during building amd no effect on crowd size. Playing at Fir Park during major renovation coukd be a nightmare or not even possible. 

[Kmcalpin]

13 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

Whatever route we go, we won’t be able to fund it ourselves. What are our options for funding a major renovation or new stadium? Looking at minimum 50M perhaps closer to 100M for new build. Not sure that major renovation would be much cheaper. 

I'd wager £20-30M for a 12,000 seat stadium but I'm no expert. 

[Kmcalpin]

18 hours ago, Jonesy said:

There's much more to ripping a club out of its community than just making sure we have a decent pub incorporated and some office blocks to rent 365 days a year.

There are many aspects to the stay V go debate Jonesy, but for the moment I'll focus on the community argument.  What community are you referring to? If we assume that Ravenscraig is the preferred location, a site would be approximately 1Km from Fir Park, as the crow flies. Thats about the same distance from Fir Park to Asda, and considerably less than the distance to Forgewood. So, it wouldn't be a huge move distance wise. 

Motherwell is a strange settlement geographically as its part of a wider conurbation including Wishaw, Newmains, Craigneuk, Netherton, Cambusnethan, Newarthill and now Ravenscraig. Indeed it used to be part of the Burgh of Motherwell and Wishaw. The only similar places I can think of are Stoke on Trent and Levenmouth.  Remove the placename signs and visitors would have difficulty in knowing exactly where they were. In short, how do we define a settlement?

Over the years, Motherwell and satellite settlements have changed dramatically and evolved and must continue to do so or they will die. It needs to be conserved not preserved. My own family originally lived in Logan’s Rows then moved a short distance to Forgewood Road. Post WW1 they moved to Netherton and split to various places like Knowetop, Pather, and outside Lanarkshire. They began supporting MFC when we located at the Roman Road ground and continued when we moved to Fir Park.  In microcosm that’s how a community evolves.

Like it or not, Ravenscraig is just a modern version of Netherton, Pather, Gowkthrapple Coltness etc, which all developed post WW1. A lot of big Ifs in this discussion, but if we ever do move to the likes Ravenscraig, it wouldn’t be ripping the community apart.  

[0Neils40yarder]

43 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

Whatever route we go, we won’t be able to fund it ourselves. What are our options for funding a major renovation or new stadium? Looking at minimum 50M perhaps closer to 100M for new build. Not sure that major renovation would be much cheaper. 
 New build you could still play at Fir park during building amd no effect on crowd size. Playing at Fir Park during major renovation coukd be a nightmare or not even possible. 

What would make it impossible?

[santheman]

1 hour ago, Kmcalpin said:

I'd like to know the annual  maintenance costs of Fir Park. I'd wager it runs into 6 figures easily. The cost of patching up the POD doesn't bear thinking about as its long past that stage.

Just out of curiosity and comparison purposes I asked a work colleague who deals with large commercial loans how much the annual servicing cost would be on a £30m capital and interest loan over 30 years.

Approx £2.2m at current rates apparently.

 

[texanwellfan]

47 minutes ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

What would make it impossible?

Demolition/construction equipment in limited space possibly encroaching into playing area. 
I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m just saying there might be that chance  I don’t have enough knowledge to say one way or the other  

 

[grizzlyg]

Lots of interesting and sensible debate regarding this. 

Let's see this season out and take it from there.  I am trying to keep calm and not start dreaming of us achieving the impossible but its difficult.  Already friction in our house as I confessed to Mrs Grizzly I had fell in love with someone else and his name was Jens! 🤣🤣

[Spiderpig]

15 minutes ago, texanwellfan said:

Demolition/construction equipment in limited space possibly encroaching into playing area. 
I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m just saying there might be that chance  I don’t have enough knowledge to say one way or the other  

 

You also have to consider where would all the fans currently seated in the POD move to? Loss of gate revenue, catering, hospitality etc, etc.

So add in all these potential costs and issues to the demolition/ rebild costs and it would be a significant sum, which would have to be costed against the new stadium option as to which one would be the least intrusive and most financially attrative to the club.

 

[Spiderpig]

1 minute ago, grizzlyg said:

Lots of interesting and sensible debate regarding this. 

Let's see this season out and take it from there.  I am trying to keep calm and not start dreaming of us achieving the impossible but its difficult.  Already friction in our house as I confessed to Mrs Grizzly I had fell in love with someone else and his name was Jens! 🤣🤣

Youve taken that too far.

[mio]

2 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

I'd wager £20-30M for a 12,000 seat stadium but I'm no expert. 

I looked about small stadiums in Europe and I think around £20m is the cost. I’d hate a Lego style stadium like St Mirren or St Johnstone. If we did get a new stadium I’d like it to look a bit unique.

the stadium of Nijmegen is a 12000 seater and is the sort of style I’d like and the stadium of  stade de la maladier in Switzerland is a belter, that’s a 12000 seater and was £20m to build.

id prefer to stay at fir park but unless we knock down the main stand and start again. I can’t see the stadium lasting another 10yrs or so as financially I think that main stand is a money pit for maintenance.